It is indeed sad that Shane Warne, one of the games greatest exponents and an unbelievably wonderful player, would be retiring at the conclusion of this Ashes Series. However, amidst all the deserved accolades and tributes that the media at large has been paying to him, I was reminded of the fact time and again that perhaps the single-most determining factor in robbing Shane Warne's right to the title of "greatest ever bowler of all times" would be his record against India. If I am not mistaken, he has played a total of 14 test matches against India, taking 43 wickets at an average of 47.18. I whole heartedly agree with the principle that statistics never tell the full story but at the same time, Warne’s statistics against India begs for a little more attention. More so, as Indian batsmen, arguably though, are regarded as the best players of spin bowling, it does not leave much to the imagination that Warne has never tasted considerable success against India in the Test arena. Perhaps, it would be one of the biggest regrets of the great man himself, when he looks back at his illustrious career and especially because while playing in India, the conditions have always been ideally suited for his craft as India, traditionally have always indulged in over-dependence on its spinners in any series played at home.

I've heard that Shane Warne is going to move into the Channel 9 commentary box. If Cricket Australia doesn't do all it can to give him some sort of coaching role, it will be the greatest waste of talent since David Gower’s premature retirement.

They simply must find some way to harness this guy’s awesome cricket ability and mind. Give him his own coaching clinic in Melbourne if he wants to be close to his family, throw in free toasted sandwiches and a mobile phone if need be, but don’t lose him to commentary.

Anyway, there are already enough Ocker voices in Channel 9’s commentary team, with the blokey drawl of Heals, the avuncular guffawing Tubs, and the excitable Slats. Please Cricket Australia, give Warne the incentive to pass on his brilliance to the young guns!

ever heard of Daniel Doran?

It was watching Warne in action that made me want to bowl wrist-spin. While I may only be village-standard it has still taken 10 years to master the variations (I count leggers, flippers, side- and over-spun googlies, toppers, sliders amongst my repertoire) and the mindset to be a reasonable wrist-spinner.

For Warne it appears that he has had freakish ability from day one and it has been a pleasure to watch him bowl since the '93 Ashes - even though he was instrumental in making sure us Poms didn't get our hands on them for so long.

A great void in the game has just appeared!

Warney the legend, forever, what a character, what a player and what an influence on cricket in general!

Old timers still swear by O'Riley as being the greatest spinners but for us Warne is one of the alltime greats if not the greatest of spinners of the modern game. I was sort of hoping that he would get his 1000th during the 2009 Lord's test. now it will never be. it is like the time he was denied a century when given out of a no ball. Aussies will find it a bit difficult to fill his boots for soem time to come. Process or not.

Well, all I can say is... Stuart MacGill will be stoked.

Strange that no one has cared to mention the fact Warne was an immoral man who under normal circumstances would have been shunned by people.

Contrast this immoral man with a gentleman Murali.

For many years umpires and politicians alike have tried to belittle Murali, make him seem like he's a "dracula" with a twisted mind, bowling illegal stuff at innocent batsmen. The Aussie PM once labeled Murali a chucker.

I wonder if all those going goo goo and ga ga over Warne quitting will shed a tear when Murali retires?

BTW if Murali had appealed excessively as Warne did in the Perth test would he have avoided a fine?

Could Sreesanth avoid one?

Warne sledges and gets away with it, non white cricketers do less and get branded for life!

Shame on us all!

The end of an era - world cricket will be that little less exciting without Shane Warne. He has done much good for the game, inspiring many young cricketing careers the world over.

But, along with this, he has lived a very public 'private' life. Each stupid action has been revealed to the world, and one can only what this sort of intrusion does to a man.
Having said that, this cricketing genius, this self-proclaimed pants man, has brought drama and contoversy to the sport for over a decade.

We will see, in several years time, that those who have once said that he is bad for the game - 'a bad role-model, an immoral man' - will soon be asking, 'where have all the personalities gone? Cricket has become so bland.' That is what Warnie brought to the game - a vibrant, infectious personality, and the game of cricket will never be the same without him.

What Can I say? People have written plenty of columns about warnie after he announced his retirement. I wanted to meet Shane Warne personally when he is playing. Now my only hope to meet him would be during his season with Hampshire. Can Australia still be a Champion side after Warnie departs? I have my doubts. For 11 long years I have been following the Spin God and I have always enjoyed every moment of it. I can sit and watch his dismissals all day. People talk about the "ball of the century". Ask Basit Ali about the ball he received which was the last ball of the 4th day in one of the test matches.
It hurt when England won the ashes by a close margin last year. The case is different now.
Warne has had a big hand in most of Australia's Test series win. They are going terribly miss the Legend. I am going to miss him in action as well.
I want to wish him all the best and may God keep him in the best of health always.

We all Love you Warnie.

Ture and Die Hard Fan of Shane Warne
Sriram from Bangalore.

Murali is the best ever....then followed by warne. Warne is a great player, but he is a still a YOB!

he is irreplaceable... sad that he's leaving cricket :(

Warnie is a legend, he is team player, he is a wonderfull player and one in a million the world had ever seen. We wont be able to see another Warnie. He had made the name for himself up among the best if not the best ever. Im sure the cricketing world will miss him as much as Asutralia will. Even i will miss him for all the joy he had given us. He gave us intensity, fighting spirit and also an never give up attitude. Warnie - a true legend and we will miss you very much..I miss you.. All the best in your future undertakings. God Bless..

Warne was simply marvelous. I would have spent all day and all night watching him bowl and still not bored. The variations he had and the spin he got is simply outstanding. He has always been my favourite among all the bowlers in the world of cricket and was the only reason for me to follow Australian Cricket. The world of cricket seems to be gloomy without him, the Ultimate Magician.

Some countries are at an inherent advantage when it comes to replenishing lost resources. No country better epitomizes the above statement than Australia. Of all the countries playing cricket, one must admit that Australia, Pakistan and South Africa always seems to have the most talented pool as a whole (Pak struggles with batter, SA with spinners), but these teams are never pathetically bad for extended periods of time (2 years or more, 4 series or more).

So yes, Australia will find it astronomically difficult to replace Warne, but if you had to ask any talent pool in the world to produce another bowler of Warne'ish ability, there's a good chance you'd pick Australia.

That's how things are; in soccer the top 5-6 countries keep producing star after star after star. I am of the idea that Brazil (the country!) is inherently superior to most soccer playing countries. I don't know if it's the frenetic national passion that channels talent into the right pockets, the average Brazilian's natural ability to kick the football harder and sweeter or the average Australian's ability to play the game of cricket better, some abilities seem genetic.

I was actually looking forward to him staying one more year...India are scheduled to tour Australia next year and as an avid Indian cricket fan, I was looking forward to another Tendulkar vs Warne contest: two greats battling it out, wonderful to watch. It would also have been a chance for Warne to set straight his record against India. Sadly, that is not to be. Best of luck to him though, and hope that he has a good life after cricket.

To Avik,
Looking at broad statistics is not the way to judge such a situation. A closer inspection of the facts would show that his first two tours were amidst the period when injuries to his shoulder and fingers were beginning to take a toll on his ability to bowl well. Note the more recent tour, when a healthy Warne bowled at a much better rate and helped Australia finally conquer the Indians at home. The Indians certainly have played him consistently better than just about anyone else, but two points worth noting are that they did, as a matter of fact, hold within their ranks arguably the finest batsman of the modern era, Tendulkar (not to mention Dravid) which would take it's toll somewhat on his figures, and he was also bowling on grounds that don't give him the kind of bounce that he generally likes. The low slow bounce of Indian wickets is one of the prime reasons their batsmen generally perform so poorly away from home.

As for his record in Australia against the Indians, the first two tests can be excused as they were his very first games for his country and had yet to find his confidence, while the late 90's series was again in the midst of his injured period. India was by far the greatest benificiary of this low point in Warne's career.

Hats off to Shane. What a performer!! Tragic that he never got the chance to captain Australia long term.
I read a comment on him being immoral. How does his personal like impact his performance on the field? Lets not get carried away by emtion here. we are all talking about Shane the cricketer. He was beyond excellence there. We loved him for the excitement he brought to the game. Murali is a great bowler too and the game will miss him just as much. But that has nothing to do with Shane.
Austrlia are going to struggle without him

Warne's achievements are highly overrated. To say that Warne is the greatest bowler ever is an insult to other spinners who played in a different era - an era when batting was of much higher calibre than it is now. Spinners like Bedi, Chandrasekhar, Prasanna, Underwood, Gibbs and so on, would have taken many more wickets if they had played against current batsmen, or if those spinners had played the same number of matches as Warne.

Warne should only be remembered from a statistical point of view – as the first bowler to take 700 test wickets (if he gets there) – nothing more, nothing less.

I wonder what could have happened to warne if he had done a 5 series tour in india ,I have to say warne avoided india at all cost because his success was mostly due to hype, good feiding by his mates, and avoiding indian batsmen ,He never had any clue in india how to bowl his only variation "oops" I said it his leg spin!!! so long warny hope you visit india atleast as channel 9 crew .. will not miss you

My, what a lot of trolls on the board today. Saying a bowler would take more wickets if they played more tests is so moronic it's gobsmacking. To try and compare batsmen from then to now is inane. Warne has great talent. Yes, I would prefer his appeals were more asking if the umpire considered the batsman out than spare my life please, but that's Warney. I, for one, am glad for the revival of leg spin bowling. I am also glad for the sense of anticipation that rippled through the ground when Warne came on to bowl. Judge not,Imran Ahmed, lest ye be judged. What would come out if every minute of your life was open to public scrutiny.

I an somewhat puzzled by the obvious vitriol spewing out against against Warne coming from so many posts? Why are you critizisng the dricketer? Could it be because ALL of the knowledgeable commentators and ex players rate him the best and not your own personal favourite? How could any cricketing lover not miss Warne playing for or against their team? The mean comments that Warne did not perform against India are just so much rubbish. He has an average of 40 in India against India. To say this is a failure againts some of the best battters in the world on their home turf is to belittle then mot Warne. The only person fit to be ranked anywhewre near Warne, a great spinner,is Murali, for the record Murali averages 63 in Australia againts Australia.
Does that make Murali a greater hopeless failure? I think not. However reduce Murali's 20 tests against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe to the 3 Warne has played, pick his best 3 performances and you will find he has 110 less wickets in the bag. Add back another 17 tests against, Australia, South Africa and England away from his home in Sri Lanka and he will glean another 50 wickets on his previous performances. net result 60 less wickets in the bag and an average worse than Warne's. Does that make Murali any less of a ledgend? I don't think so but it does give you the reason why experts around the world rate Warne the best ever!

My thoughts on Warne reflects many others in that he is one of the great spin bowlers. However I must draw attention to the fact that certain distinguished writers are calling him the greatest spinner of all time, possibly the greatest bowler of all time and one (who shall go unmentioned) the greatest player of all time. For me, quite simply it doesn't add up especially in comparison with Murali. An average of 25 odd would barely put one in competition with the greatest bowlers ever (as opposed to Muralis average of about 21. I don't want to sound churlish about it (I'm not even a SL supporter), but the reality is that he's not even the greatest spinner of his own generation. Nevertheless, he is a great player, probably the best bowler ever in Ashes test matches, and the game of cricket will be poorer without him. My best wishes to him and for what his future holds.

I wonder what would have happened if Murali had done another 5 tours of Australia at his average of 63 rune per wicket? I also wonder what would have happend if he, like Warne, had only played 3 tests against Zim and bangladesh instead of the 20 he has played? Warne is ranked best because he consistently beat the best on pitches NOT conducive to spin. Pitches that Murali has not been able to master!

As an Australian, I'll concede that Warne's the most consistent leg-spinner of the modern era. However, I can't think of him as a great character of the game.

The real characters are people like Keith Miller, who was just out in the middle for a good time, who used to set fields by saying "scatter" and who never launched into displays of petulance on the field. How about Arthur Mailey, whose self-effacing humility led him to claim dropped catches in the crowd "by the gentleman in the grey coat" when hit for 365 in an innings? How about people like David Boon, Merv Hughes, and Kerry O'keefe (the laugh and all)? (I'm not nearly as old as I sound by the way.)

But Warne could never sink too low. Whether making personal sledges (like calling Ronnie Irani's mother a whore), showing outward and obvious derision at umpiring decisions (virtually every innings he bowled in) or even mocking the umpires themselves ("Asad Rauf- does he even know the rules?") in the media, he did it all and just assumed he had a right too because of his ability. That also explains his relationship with Indian bookies, English nurses, and his "mother's" pharmacist.

No, Warne's not a great character, he's just an arrogant, spoiled, petulant thug who believes his own legend. If his departure leads me to ever wonder where the "characters" have gone, as far as I'm concerned, they've been gone for years.

I know this probably won't get posted, but at least writing this expresses a different point of view from within Australia.

Gideon's right, it is hard to bowl leg breaks. I tried it once and the ball ended up on my roof. As I climbed the ladder for the fourth time in succession I resolved to stick to off breaks.

Warney is a HUGE talent who will be greatly missed by Australian fans. Personally, I'm just looking forward to seeing a decent contest, although Warney (and McGrath) retiring doesn't mean the Aussie top order will be any easier to dismiss.

I realy like the way he bowls. He is the legend in leg spinning or we may say spinning the ashes and finaly retain.I dont think any cricketer will produce in this style and character of cricketing. At the end, I have to lessen my interest in Aus Cricket Victory esp in test. He served CA in a very romantic style. I have a great wish to meet him if i were.........

Sad to see him go.

To all those people that doubt him, question his morals, deride his India record (ps Bradmans average agianst india is 178.75, much higher than his overall average, so does that make you thing he "underperformed" against England) or don't rate him. Warne will always be recognised as the best spinner because he transformed the dying art of wrist spin to become fashionable again, he was able to torment batsman at 85kph, not 155. Murali is good and carries SL (but please 137 wickets v Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, Warne has 17).

Due to him, many children all over the world now want to bowl leg spin, and if you just try it, you'll discover just how easy it is to fail. Wisden acknowledged this, and thats why he's in the 5 cricketers of the century. An achievement he accepted half way through his career.

Warne knows that cricket needs to inspire children to cricket greatness, and this is his greatest gift to cricket. Money can't do this

Go Socceroos!

Warne was far more than statistics will ever convey- to compare him to other bowlers by using statistics is simplistic, and misses the point. The man is responsible for revitalising spin bowling (especially leg-spin), and making cricket far more popular in Australia. He has also been the most beautiful player to watch in living memory.

You can't make a direct comparison with Murali as to who, of the two great men, is the most effective bowler. However, it is pretty obvious that Warne will be more fondly remembered as an artist and a character, whereas sadly Murali will always have the chucking cloud hanging over him.

It is a shame to see the small-minded comments of a minority on this blog.

Shane Warne is a legend - pure and simple; those that can't acknowledge this either do not understand cricket or have a huge chip on their shoulder.

As a kid, I remember my Grandfather talking about having see the Don bat. Decades on, there was still a sparkle in his eye when he spoke about it and you could tell that he considered this one of the really significant events in his life.

I suspect that over the next decade or two, people will come to realise what a wonderful bowler Warne truly was as they compare his deeds with those of his successors. Perhaps those of us that have enjoyed his efforts over the past decade will one day speak with our kids and grand kids about the times that we saw Warne bowl.

As to Saumil and shah's comments, perhaps you should listen to the actual comments of people like Bedi, etc and hear the reverance that they speak of in regard to Warne before posting your misguided comments. You might also try and bowl a true leg spinner yourself and see how difficult it actually is.

Warne is VERY overrated! As a champion you have to perform well against the best and he NEVER did that. Against the Indians (who are the best when it comes to playing spin)he failed-MISERABLY.
I think he retired because he saw his powers waning-witness Pieterson and Collingwood battering him in the Adelaide test. If he faced India in 07 he would have been murdered.
Very good bowler, big personality but overrated. A creation of the Aussie and Anglo media-much like Bradman.
He also got away with stuff that no sub-continent cricketer would get away with.

Saumil and Shah,

Let me guess, you're big Murali fans.

For starters, from where did you pull the idea that batsmen aren't as good these days?? You are talking absolute s*#t! What about Tendulkar, Lara, Kallis, Dravid, Saeed Anwar in his prime, Mohammed Yousuf, Jayasuriya???

Warne may have struggled in India, but even the great bowlers show weaknesses in certain places (Murali in Aus).

Open your eyes and see the whole Warne package.

The entertainer, the character, the bamboozler, the genius, the warrior... never to be forgotten!

In twenty years time, kids will still speak of shane Warne the legend. I doubt we can say the same for Muttiah Muralitharan (and not just because they can't pronounce it!)

I find it amazing that supporters of the Indian team, who I might add are the greatest underachievers in the history of cricket find it the right time to belittle a true champion.

perhaps tendulkar and co might leave the sub continent every now and then and play on bouncy pitches and see how their averages go.

perhaps Murali can stoip bowling to Bangladesh and Zimbabwe twice a year and start playign the grown up countries.

jealousy is a terrible emotion you from the sub continent and your reverse racism is so transparant that it borders on being a pyschotic malaise.

Warne is the best bowler ever full stop. Warne bowls, Murali takes wickets and the Indian batsman cant perform on tracks with grass on them

Well done warnie, you have showed the world how to be a great cricketer

There are some very deluded subcontinental types out there!

Whilst Warne was a yob, a drug cheat and an overaggressive overappealer, he was also the best spin bowler of all time.

For those who would seek to push Murali's bandwagon - first of all, take out the wickets earned by both men vs Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, then consider the fact that Murali's success is due to an action which relies on (depending on your view) either a freakish physical ability to contort his joints or regularly breaching the laws of the game.

Now you know why Warne stands alone as the best spinner ever.

Interesting to read how these so called critics failed to state or even acknowledge, that Warne single handedly re-invented the frontline attacking slow bowler. He showed that a spin bowler can intimidate, annoy, grind, frustrate and strike fear into an opposing team! Such was his influence that every other Australian bowler profited from his relentless pressure. These were the non-statistical influences that all cricket purists understood and were in awe of. Congratulations to a one of a kind champion!

Whenever i have watched warnie bowl in tests, i have to admit that each bowl that he has bowled it looked like he is going to take a wicket. Mcgrath is a great fast bowler, but even he sets up his opponents to take wickets. But warnie allways looked like he will get the wicket with the next ball he bowled.
Warnie what a legend! Cricket will never be same again.
I just hope that cricket gets more colourfull guys like warnie.

To Imran,Saumil, boo hoo waa! How many times have we heard this narrow view from the Curry Connection. Warne is undoubtably the greatest bowler of all time. To say the little chucker is any better is showing your ignorance. He has changed the way people percieve spinners and also, to say that the batsman today are inferior s a bad joke. Look at Daryl Cullinan, he creamed all other countrys but failed against Warne. He Belted the curry belt spinners to all parts of the ground.
To Shah, the only reason he avoided India was the smell!

Gideon Haigh - I think Daniel Doran is the most promising leggy in Australia at the moment. Check his figures for this season :)

Hey Gideon,

What are the chances of one of one of my personal favourite cricketers Stuart MacGill? Surely he should be given a go, perhaps even in Sydney, right?
Can he really play another 3 years like he says..or will he forever be known as the unluckiest cricketer ever?
He seems to become a lot calmer and collected when he plays for his country, perhaps his frustrations get to him when he keeps being overlooked..a very complex character..

He is a legend w

He is a legend who a left a huge lagacy. I will miss you warne just like I miss steve waugh and it just create shivers in my body when I think what if sachin tendulkar goes?

i find it interesting how people deride warne for his poor record against india. how about murali's poor record against australia in australia - a 63 average against a team that is supposedly WEAK against spin? warne is regarded as the greatest spinner because he was so successful on pitches not conducive to spin, such as in australia, england and south africa. and would you ever categorise murali (or even any other contemporary spinner) as being a "matchwinner"? warne delivers when it counts the most - the adelaide test and the 1999 world cup spring to mind. have a look at sri lanka's test record - not particularly great, even with murali bowling. he takes bags of wickets against weak opposition.

i would disagree that the true test of a spinner is how well he does on the subcontinent. it's more like how well he does against australia IN australia. and no spinner can boast that, murali included.

Warne is a great bowler but it is fine for people to bring Murali into the mixture if you are going to make noises about him being 'da greatest'. Those who bring up Murali's performance against Zim/Bang/Aussies should look at the following stats. Warne has taken 186 wkts @ 23.43 in 34 tests against England. Murali has 93 wkts @ 19.74 in 13 tests against them. Just because you are willing to believe anything you read in your local newspaper does not make Warne the greatest bowler even of our time not to forget Marshall, Barnes, etc. who have gone before us. Get a grip boys!

I love these warne supporters who dismiss the facts:
*Warne took drugs that mask other drugs (could have been anything from steroids to nandrolone like what shaob got done for). And you still tell me warne is a good character for cricket? He averages 25 as compared to murali's 21. He is not even the greatest playing spinner. He has re invented the game for "LEG SPIN" bowling. Therefore he is a great LEG spinner. And why is there a "cloud" over murali when scientific tests have cleared him of throwing. Yet scientific tests have also implicated Warne as a drugs cheat, yet we all seem to have selective memory. Its easy to get carried away by the emotion but look at the facts. I'll give you another one. MURALI is chided for taking his wickets against lesser opponents. 137 from 20 matches against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. U take those twenty matches and wickets away from his tally and he averages 5.96 wickets a match. WITHOUT PLAYING A MATCH AGAINST BANGLA OR ZIM. Compare that to Warne's record INCLUDING Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and he averages 4.88. ONE whole wicket less per match. Im giving you facts here. Besides why did Warne miss those matches against Bangladesh at home? Because he was banned for taking drugs. Drugd that concealed whatever other drugs he was taking to hasten his return from injury. No wonder many Australian cricketers dont get injured and that too for short periods of time. I let the facts speak for themselves.

skid and colin..
this talk about murali taking less valuable wickets is a whole load of rubbish.. you can remove those 120 odd test wickets and murali still has a far superior record than warne.. mind you those easy wickets against ZI and BA, keeping in mind that bangladesh almost beat australia in one of these tests and most of muralis wickets against zimbabwe were when they were a decent team (flower brothers,murray,etc)...
do remeber than wanre has bowled 4000 deliveriesmore than murali has and played about 30 more matches.. plus whilst competition to take wickets in aus teammight be higher trust me its harder to take those wickets when yopudont have too much support on theother end which is what murali has had to overcome..he had to do it all by himself..
either way this is not about murali and only about wanre and imho wanre is an unbelievable entertainer and a great cricketer .. heisnt the greatest bowler of his time but could be the greatest entertainer in cricket

Warnie is the best bowler I have seen in the last 15 years because he is the one player who has turned around the most number of matches. In addition to his skill and mental genius in cricket, his contribution to wins comes from an attitude that never gives up..he's relentless and has a fierce will to find a way to win.. the essence of a true sportsman. Some may argue Murali has won probably more games, but bending it even by only a few degrees, even if its within legal limits, does give him an advantage. Murali enjoys his craft and is driven by testing his skills against batsmen, while Warne is driven by enjoying the passion of competition. Warnie's passion is what you want to see in every sports person.

Slayer, Knock Warnie all you like but... leave the big guy out of it. Bradman hyped? You have know idea! Anglo media? Any self respecting writer from the subcontinent would disagree whole heartedly with you. Just one other thing for everyone else.... you cannot compare Warne and Murali... only Warne bowls!

What a terrible bunch of contrary whingers you are on both sides!
Who cares if warne was a cheat, drug user etc. who cares if murali bowls with a bent elbow or has taken loads of wickets against bang and zim. I am an england fan who lives in aussie and i have had to deal with all warne's antics against us over the years. We have far more reason to be bitter about warne than the indians do, but he is so damn entertaining, how can anyone not enjoy watching him? It is not that you love the guy, but if your batsmen get runs against them, you know they are doing well.

As for murali, you can debate all night about his stats but he hasnt had the backing of the best fielding side, batting side, fast bowler (mcgrath) etc. how,then, can he be compared with warne?
He also is however, great to watch and one of my favourite cricketers.

The point is, stop bitching and act like true cricket fans not patriotic idiots!

Let's see, now...which international team has Warne tormented the most over the past 15 years or so? No prizes for guessing, folks. Now, go and find me a single genuine cricket-lover in England who will say, with his hand on his heart, that he's happy to see Warne go. Believe me, you won't find one.

Thank you, Shane, for slow-roasting us with such panache for so long: wherever and whenever it is you bow out with Hampshire, I'll be there on that day to clap you all the way back to the pavilion for your last hurrah.

Bazza wrote

"However reduce Murali's 20 tests against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe to the 3 Warne has played, "

I'm not going to comment on Zimbabwe, and it's a small sample size ... but Warne averages 27.27 against Bangladesh, including a 0/112 in the first innings at Fatullah.

Much seems to have been said dimming down Warne's achievements. The comparison to Bill O'Reilly has been raised a few times, but it needs to be remembered that O'Reilly bowled in the era of uncovered pitches. Imagine the SCG without covers! Any blogger here would be a chance of a wicket. AS far as Murali goes, he is a fantastic bowler, no doubt, but the arguments surrouning his wealth of cricket against whipping boys Bangaldesh and ICC embarassments Zimbabwe make a good point. Also, playing all home series on the subcontinent with pitches highly suited to spin is an incredible advantage. How many wickets has Muralitharan taken at the WACA? At Brisbane?

Warne's personal life, to me, is a non-event. IT really is no one's business. He is a professional cricketer so I care about is how he behaves and performs on the field. Who he sleeps with off it is up to him. Would Don Bradman have the same aura if he had the modern media hounding him during his palying days? Bradman was a thoroughly dislikable person, somewhat of a biggot who discriminated openly based on religion, yet his erminence preceeds him in Australia.

Can I say to all those detractors of Warne's ability and greatness in the game, there seems to be train of thought that goes along the line "..as his record in India is not on par with that of other countries, he is not great and is overrated.."

Let me say your comments are not in harmony with true cricket supporters in the subcontinent. I have been fortunate to have lived in India and Bangladesh for some years over the last 20 years. And, if there ever was a conversation starter, it was cricket and invariably we debated its masters. Tendulkar was always mentioned (and as you would know, Bradman was reminded of his batting style when watching the master bat). Shane Warne was always praised and extremely respected for his ability to revive the dying art of wrist spin. Most importantly, there are millions of budding shane warnes all over the world, attempting to bowl leggies. His ability to bowl effectively at all times, from the first session of test match to the last on all wickets, not just when the wicket is turning. No one has ever done what he has. Murili is also great and not everyone, including yourselves agree with Bedi.

Do yourselves a favour, if you can't see greatness in Warne, best to just keep it quiet. Or maybe you'll never know greatness, even it it were to trip you up.

« More on Adam & Rudi | | One blows, the other sucks »

December 18, 2006

Posted by Gideon Haigh at 1:15 AM in Third Test, Perth

Breathtaking Warne-O-Scope

Shane Warne showed 'the depth of his character, competitiveness, obstinacy and optimism' on the fourth day at Perth © Getty Images


When you’ve as many Test wickets as Shane Warne, I suppose you can afford to be philosophical. But if ever a bowler deserved more for his dedication, it was Warne yesterday, who ended the day with 1 for 100 for 31 fierce, feisty and fun overs.

Great as he is on days like the last at Adelaide, where his self-belief fuels an entire XI, I somehow relish him more in situations like this, where he shows the depth of his character, competitiveness, obstinacy and optimism. I’ve tried to convey some of those depths in a couple of pieces for the Guardian today, although I so enjoy watching Warne bowl that it’s almost a shame to spoil it by writing: it’s like explaining a magic trick.

Warne simply never lets a ball go without expecting a wicket. When some do not, he is obstupefied. He reminds me of a story that John Rutherford told me about that ornery all-rounder Cec Pepper, who some will know as a pioneer of the flipper.

Pepper was bowling one day to Frank Worrell, and released a delivery with a cry of: ‘That’s it!’ It was: Worrell was bowled. When team-mates gathered excitedly round Pepper and asked about the ejaculation, he explained simply: ‘As soon as I let it go, I knew there wasn’t a man alive who could play that ball.’

At the press conference after yesterday’s plan, Glenn McGrath paid Warne pointed treatment: his late wickets were Warne's as much as his own. Standing at the back of the presser as I usually do, I also saw a nice moment as Cook left, McGrath entered and most of the crowd were fussing over their tape recorders. As they passed, McGrath shook Cook’s hand warmly: ‘Well batted. Great effort.’ It could have been two blokes from rival clubs after a Saturday game; the Australians' magnanimity where opponents are concerned is one of their most endearing qualities.

Maybe I should have asked McGrath what he thinks of Rudi Koertzen, seeing he was another batsman who received a distinctly speculative decision from him on the first day. Or Michael Clarke whom he fired at Lord’s, and at Sydney during the Super Test. Or...well, I could go on. Just so we’re clear: there’s nothing partisan in my low opinion of Koertzen’s umpiring. Nor am I rushing to judgement. Yes, umpires do make mistakes: replays showed that Steve Bucknor sawed Strauss off in Adelaide, but Bucknor's umpiring this summer has otherwise been excellent so criticism would be unwarranted. Umpires, though, are also open to criticism. The whole idea of the ICC Elite Panel is that some umpires are better than others. How else are we to know this than by critical evaluation of their performances? For the record, I think the best umpires in the world at the moment are Mark Benson and Simon Taufel. What a shame neither will umpire an Ashes Test.

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Comments

Posted by: Justin 4 days, 4 hours ago

On the question of erroneous decisions by umpires(who are only human)with the advantage of modern technology, why cannot the ICC introduce a rule that would allow a team a maximum of 3 appeals to the third umpire, each innings. They (ICC)alllow the umpires reference to the 3r ump.for close boundary calls when the crucial decisions that have such an impact to the end result is ignored. I consider this appaling. This current Ashes series has been seriously damaged because of this, and, it is pretty obvious the Poms have been at the receiving end unfortunately. I am an Aussie supporter, but want us to win squarely.
Can one of you esteemed writers do something about this? I would also like to know what you think of this idea of mine?
Thank you
Regards,
Justin

Posted by: Ian Munro 4 days, 2 hours ago

Here I am in China and I can't get the ABC on short wave now. It died.
Glad I fond this site, Wish I'd found it earlier.
Not as good as watching or listening but you have to take what you can get here.
Thanks heaps for a great web site
Yin An

Posted by: Chula 4 days, 1 hour ago

Talk about Warne's perseverance and Koertzen's bad umpiring is ridiculous - anyone who saw the 4th day's play would know that Warne was definitely overappealing.. none of the appeals that Koertzen turned down were out. Still, Warne even had a go at him.. I would be very surprised if he isn't reprimanded - or maybe I shouldn't be.. hint hint.

Saying Simon Taufel is a better pick doesn't make a good argument. First off, he's Australian so he can't umpire in the Ashes, and just because he's the best umpire in the world doesn't mean he has to umpire in the Ashes - test matches are test matches. Anyway, he made some bad calls in the NZ vs SL 2nd test match.

Posted by: Ram 4 days, 1 hour ago

I agree with Justin.I am writing this from United States where during American Football games the coaches are allowed thrice in each half to challenge the on-field decision.The TV referee then makes the call.If the challenger wins the appeal,he is happy.If he loses the appeal he is charged a timeout.Here we can add say 5 runs towards extra or substract depending upon TV umpire's decision.

Posted by: Craig Warnes 4 days ago

Hi Justin

I've heard that idea bandied around ever since third umpires came into the game. It's not without merit but do we really want to have the game (any game in fact) adjudicated by robots?

Cricket is so heavily weighed in favour of the batsman now and punters moan and complaing about the predicability of games. Look at the recent ICC Champions Trophy. So many teams were found out with poor technique, yet all the complaints were about the pitches.

Most decisions, such as LBW's, caught behinds or bat pads, if referred to the third umpire would be given in favour of the batsman due to their being sufficient doubt. Most replays shown after an umpire gives a decision invariably show that perhaps the umpire could have give the player not out.

I'm all for keeping things as they are and perhaps it would be a better idea for the ICC to start training and encouraging ex-players to wear the black and white? There should be some incentive and better training - that will give us umpires of the standard of Taufel and Benson et al, rather than applying the strict word of the law such as replays would bring about.

Food for thought anyways.
Cheers

Posted by: Marc 4 days ago

Rudi Koertzen has been one of the most respected, and least controversial umpires in the game for years. I honestly think McGraths dismissal had no impact on the test anyway. This dig at him, and promotion of various other umpires, has spoilt an otherwise entertaining article. I suspect the author was a huge fan of Daryl Hair, who was guilty of numerous bad calls against certain teams only.

Posted by: Luke 4 days ago

The neutral umpire system robs the best umpires of officating in the best matches (eg. Taufel and Benson in the Ashes). Plus how is a subcontinent umpire going to know if a ball will pass over the stumps or not in Perth or Brisbane? A far more sensible, fair and in-the-spirit-of-the-game approach would be to have one umpire from the host nation and one from the visiting nation. It would foster understanding; the host umpire could explain local conditions to his counterpart and it would stil be fair to all parties, INCLUDING the umpires.

Posted by: poontang1 4 days ago

Yes, Warne is a master. I agree with McGrath when he says that Warne deserves some of the credit for his late wickets. Its all about sustained pressure at this level, and dare i say that the poms have to a certain extent played very well. As far as Rudi and his decisions go, they were a little average but when you get one chance to make a decision you trust your instincts, at first sight Strauss looked out. Please don't bring the replays into it.

Posted by: Alaric 4 days ago

I like the idea of limited "challenges" or "appeals" to the 3rd umpire, but would suggest that they be few in number (say three per team per match) but that they not be "used up" unless the challenge is found to be incorrect. A challenge could be used when batting or bowling. It would need to be made BEFORE any replay of the decision is shown on TV or a big screen at the ground (may have to have a clause in the TV rights contract to allow a reasonable delay here). The challenge could result in one of three outcomes: (1) Original decision is clearly incorrect - decision is reversed, challenge is not used up; (2) Original decision is clearly correct - decision stands, challenge is used; or (3) Replay is inconclusive - decision stands (notwithstanding doubt introduced) but challenge is not used up. The idea is that challenges will only be used when the player/team is almost certain that the umpire has got it wrong - otherwise they risk losing one of their challenges. The occasional close LBW will still end up going the wrong way, but I don't have a problem with that. However I'd expect most poor decisions on edges to be reversed.

A bonus effect is that I think this would eliminate some of the more disingenuous appeals. The Australians regularly appeal for bat-pad decisions that clearly went nowhere near the bat. The benefits of doing so will be much reduced if every time they happen to hoodwink the umpire, the batsman (who will know if he hit it) can challenge. "Successful" fraudulent appeals could actually have a negative effect - annoying the umpire who you make look a fool becuase he gets reversed.

Also on the issue of Taufel and Benson... I like the idea of neutral umpires, but surely instead of two neutrals you could have one from each country for some matches? I don't believe umpires are generally biased, but surely this removes the perception just as effectively as the present system, while allowing Benson to umpire a Lords Test and Taufel a Boxing Day one?

Posted by: Chrisso 4 days ago

Warney got his just deserves today though, 4-fa and he proved that he's not only a flamboyant cricketer, but those who didn't believe have seen how hard he goes at it, and sweats away at his job. Well done the aussies, the ashes are home till next time!

Posted by: Mr. Natural 4 days ago

Let's not forget how hopeless Flintoff has proven as a Captain in the field. I have been more than surpised at the lack of criticsim for his field placings and overall tactics. Is he unable to be criticised? The Ashes have been taken away from the English like candy from a baby, and there still seems to be no focus on the poor-at-many-times sole Captain tactics. Can someone please explain?

Posted by: no-hype 4 days ago

The english press needs to stop obsessing about warne as if he is the 2nd coming of jesus. He is definitely a great bowler and lot of fun to watch, but please stop making a god out of him for his performances against an England team, which apart from KP has no real world class batsman of spin. How well does warne do against tendulkar or lara? The gold standard for batting against spin. check out.... 1st see the stats and then go and see the videos. your magician will look quite ordinary. you dont even have to go that far..... look how KP handled warne thus far in the series.
An analogy of warne's "magic" against inept players of spin is a pro-cricketer making club grade batsmen look silly. That's how pathetic english team is against spin.
and dont get me started on aussie cricketers' magnanimity. We all know how magnanimous they were before cricket australia stepped in. Itz like bullies who put up a show when their parents/teachers discipline them. For every act of magnanimity off the field that you say they display I will find double the number of unsportsmanlike behaviour on the field and i am sure i can find a good number of events off-field too where these same aussies (mcgrath and co) have behaved disgracefully.

Posted by: bono-fan 4 days ago

A congratulations from Pigeon ? What was all the talk about aussies going soft on opposition. Great gesture on his part.
As far as umpiring is concerned, i would like to mention the most underrated but pehraps the 2nd most consistent umpire in world cricket right now is Aleem Dar. I dont see a point why anybody doesnt mention him in the same breath as Tafuel, Bucknor or those good umpires standing in test matches of late. I think he has done a TREMENDOUS job of late and has to be the 2nd best umpire in the world at this very moment. I have seen Mark benson make a few mistakes of late. Aleem dar deserves much more accolades than he recieves now. Twice being in the running to for Umpire of the year is no mean achievement in this cut throat world.

Apart from him, Daryl harper had a faboulous series recently in Pakistan and is continuing is astonishing work in South Africa now. These three umpires i believe are top of the line at the moment.

Posted by: Richard 4 days ago

Justin, I think your idea proves you know nothing much at all about the beauty of cricket.

Posted by: Kiran 4 days ago

Capital suggestion, Justin! Let me also add that there should be a penalty if a team loses any of its appeals to the 3rd umpire, like losing one over if it is one-day cricket, for example. That will deter misuse. What I would also like to suggest is having a 3rd on-field umpire to judge over-stepping calls by the bowler. I am a certified umpire at some level and have found it rather difficult to shift the focus from the popping crease to judging if the ball landed outside the leg-stump (for lbw calls) in a fraction of a second. Moreover, the best position to judge overstepping calls is from a position along the popping crease. There is an inevitable parallax error from the normal umpire's position, making it difficult to make overstepping calls correctly, especially if a bowler doesn't land his front heal while releasing the ball. Sometimes, there is not enough time for an umpire to run into the correct position for judging a run-out call; my suggestion would help there also.

Posted by: K S Ramachandran 4 days ago

Before going to the stage of the affected team being allowed to appeal, I would suggeat that the field umpire should be instructed by the ICC to refer all close cases to the third umpire and abide by his decision. They are already doing it in cases of runout claims!

Posted by: K S Ramachandran 4 days ago

Before going to the stage of the affected team being allowed to appeal, I would suggeat that the field umpire should be instructed by the ICC to refer all close cases to the third umpire and abide by his decision. They are already doing it in cases of runout claims!

Posted by: Peter 4 days ago

Gideon -
You are right that the umpires performance should be up for scrutiny, but referring to every tight call that went against England as a poor decision, and then conviently not mentioning any bad decisions that went the other way is hardly balanced journalism. Thanks for the insight into the sportsmanship between the two teams, it's not something that gets reported too often...

Justin -

Hate having to rip into another Aussie, but to suggest that the current series has "been seriously damaged" by bad umpiring, or to infer that we haven't won "squarely" is ridiculous. The 2005 Ashes series suffered from much worse umpiring blunders, but even then, no-one tried to claim that England hadn't won fair & square. Australia have fully deserved the 3-0 result... Hold your head high mate!

Posted by: Jag 4 days ago

Well, how it must hurt to be an English cricketer/supporter.
For all you want to say about selection and lead up games, they tried their bloody damndest, from never-never to maybe-maybe to could-it-be?..to all-over-now-to-BertsFamilyFued...every test match had signs of hope, but Australia won all the moments that mattered..and that's Cricket...that Aus won these tight moments was really a sign of their hunger, born from Australian sporting supremacy (plan, execute, expect, celebrate or dissapoint but never with distraction or acrimony).

nb Gid - tried very hard to refrain from rants that this is a victory for aussie spirit, weet-bix, qantas businessclass lounges etc etc...and i did it, nearly.

Posted by: Richard 4 days ago

Justin, I think your idea proves you know nothing much at all about the appeal of cricket.

Taking the drama out of waiting those angonisingly slow micro-seconds for the umpire to raise an arm or shake a head is, well, the road to oblivion. Waiting for an umpire to make a decision is when time stands still. Where else can you get that? Whether he gets it right 100% of the time is not an issue. No person gets anything right all the time in whatever it is that they do. Even when it comes to interpreting whether a bowler bowls with a bent arm or not...

See what happens when you introduce technology?!

Posted by: ou are 3 days, 23 hours ago

He may go down in history as one of the greats but had he behaved himself off the field, he could well have been one of the great captians as well as he has a great cricket mind to.

Posted by: ashish 3 days, 23 hours ago

well warne is a great bowler, his wickets and his consistency over the years have are a proff of that.
but is he that great a bowler to be said as the greatest spinner of all times. the answer is NO.
Lets see this from an australian point of view only. according to aussies, anyone who jasnt performed against them is not at all good, no matter what he has achieved else where, the case in point is rahul dravid of india, he falied in aus. in 1999, an dwhen he went to aus. doing very well still he was not accepted as a world class player, it was only after that series when he played one of the greatest innings of all times, that he was given his due recognotion. so why not the same test for warne.
well if we apply the same test for warne , he fails and in fact fails miseraly. if you are a spinner, the biggest test for you is npwling to the indians especially in india where even though the pitches are helpful its next to impossible to contain the indian batsmen forget about bowling them out, and here warne comes a cropper. he has been carted, destroyed not only by the test batsmen of the calibre of sehwag, tendulkar, dravid and of course lakhsman, in fact lakhman have made warne look like even worse than a club spinner in india, even the state team batsmen have gone after warne succesfully, and the fact is that warne has toured india now thrice and every time the same treatment has been given to him, and therefore he fails this acid test miserably. therefore i wonder why he is considered the grestest spinner of all times. would a sub continent player who would have been in the same circumstance been given the same kind of accolade, definately no and above all he is a match fixer. he in fact should have been given a life ban along with mark waugh for fixing the match. if india's cricketers have been given life bans then why not whote players. would the forgein press would have given same kind of treatment to a player from the sub continent, the answer is no. so why to warne. there are some very serious question involved and ill be glad if some one can answer them.

Posted by: sridhar 3 days, 23 hours ago

I think Warne is one of the finest things to have happened not only to Australian cricket but to world cricket as well.What a bowler!He has given so much pleasure to viewers like me that I feel that he will leave a void in world cricket whenever he decides to retire.Yes the umpiring will always be an issue.My only comment is that the umpiring this time around has not hurt England as much as the umpiring hurt Australia in England when they last met.

Posted by: Nigel 3 days, 23 hours ago

Who is responsible for this great Australian team? much credit must go to the man who thinks outside the square - boot camps and all. John Buchanan is the architect of such a team. He deserves a lot of praise. He will be sorely missed when he reires in 2007.

Posted by: Lashan 3 days, 23 hours ago

Well this is a great race between the two greates bowlers in the hitory to the top of highest wicket takers list.I think in the last couple of years Warne and Murali have been piling on the wickets at an amasing rate we have no idea this race will end.But one thing for sure.We have been so lucky to see the two greatest bowlers in the gane operating at same time at their best.I hope they continue to do so long as possible.Any one have any prediction to the wickets they get.I say Muali will lead at the end with nearly 1000wkts

Posted by: Matt 3 days, 23 hours ago

Justin - its not your idea, its Ian Chappell's. Otherwise a good point and worth considering.

Posted by: Bob 3 days, 22 hours ago

I can bowl better than Warne, and thats an understatement!

Posted by: Kartikeya 3 days, 22 hours ago

The question of Warne's greatness has often intrigued me. Coming as i do from India, where Warne has been played more easily than many of his spin bowling contemporaries (Murali and Saqlain come to mind immediatly), i am naturally sceptical as to whether Warne actually lives up to his "Wisden Cricketer of the Century" tag. I mean, if you think about it, there are fewer than 25 active, established leg spinners in the whole world of first class cricket today.

There was a comment i read in Nasser Hussein's autobiography, to the effect that English batsmen are simply not good players of spin bowling. Which begs the question - most of Warne's wickets have come against sides which have been traditional poor players of spin bowling. His bowling average is therefore inflated. The number of wickets he has is inflated to.... hes played 140 tests in a matter of 13-14 years, Fred Trueman played 20 years for 67, Sobers played 20 years for 93.

So in my humble opinion, is Warne a great bowler? Yes, definitely. Is he a great competitor? Yes, definitely. However, is he the Bradman of spin bowling? In my opinion, no. Not any more than Hayden is the Bradman of opening batting. Is he good enough to be one of wisden's 5 cricketers of the century? definitely not. If anything, and i realise im writing this on wisden cricinfo's website, the selection of Warne ahead of someone like Imran Khan or Frank Worrell or Sunil Gavaskar - whose contribution to world cricket was that they delivered 3 more world class cricket teams apart from being magnificient cricketers, reduces Wisdens credibility as the definitive cricket publication.

I agree that Warne's standing lies in the relative uniqueness of his art, and in his unquestionable greatness as a spin bowler. Compare someone like Warne, with someone like McGrath. Id offer to you that McGrath is the greater bowler. Warne is a great bowler too..... but he does not belong amongst Wisden's 5 cricketers of the 20th century any more than someone like Botham does.

Posted by: Shawry 3 days, 22 hours ago

Justin, your idea is one that has, in one form or another, been mulled over in a number of forums for some time, though nothing seems to be done. The oft quoted fear that it will reduce umpires to nought more than a couple of hat-racks. The question is, of course, when to introduce it. To do so this series and eliminate the mistakes would have been lacking in true justice, given that England only won the Ashes last year on the back of repeated umpiring mistakes, most notably and no less seriously impacting on the tour of Damian Martyn in '05 than they did on Strauss in '06. Perhaps once each pairing of teams are squared away for series results, the playing field would be level enough to introduce it. It certainly would allow a greater shine to victories such as this, and respectability and acceptance to losses when they occur.

Posted by: David Fine 3 days, 22 hours ago

What is really remarkable is Warne has the energy to yell, query and plead for everything. All his deliveries come tipped with one called The Chatter. When and if he retires, a career as a barrister for the defence should appeal to the Clarence Darrow of the crease. The umpire is usually unmoved. Like the Little Britain "Computer says no." "Rudi Koertzen says no." But Warnie is never dissuaded.

Posted by: hari singh 3 days, 22 hours ago

Shane Warne is a man of many parts. A player of cricket, but not just of cricket. As the years have gone by, his cricket has been increasingly tinged with theatre by the cricketing gods. He is part magic and part demolition. For once, when he comes on to bowl, the game starts moving as he wants it move. And that is something that only the naturals among this side geniuses can accomplish.

The measured movement to the crease, the steely glint in the eye, the zinc that melts in blistering heat, they all combine in his script as he toils for a day with little rewards and plenty of magic.

Because in the great man's script Perth will forever be his toil, his sweat powering the aussies ahead, and Melbourne will be his glory.

700 and 707. Bring them on Warny. What would we do, when he leaves the Oval in 2009 ? But that's a story for another day.

Posted by: Ross 3 days, 22 hours ago

Yes, there have been some unfortunate decisions, but there should be no guilt associated with them. I remember some equally questionable decisions in England last year that impacted the Australian batsmen - Damien Martyn being particularly unlucky. And how could Glen McGrath have been out in the first innings of the Perth when he is caught off his shoulder. He was just settling in for a big one. The general message? The decisions all even out in the end.

Posted by: YG 3 days, 22 hours ago

Umpiring decisions?

this series has been excellent by normal standards that we see during a test series. No big blunders except the mcgrath dismissal.

The last series did have massive blunders - martyn twice and katich once and another massive nick with a huge noise (an englishman actually reminded me of that the other day when talking about koertzen), that didn't get given off trescothick i think. A nick so big the fielders only half appealed, and then stood there in total shock when it was given not out.

The ones that england complain about, like the strauss ones are still of the 50/50 type, especially the two at perth.

For every one of those 50/50 ones against england (of which there are only a few), there's been a 50/50 one where an australian batsman was given out (eg. ponting and lee in the first innings of this test), or a bowler denied a wicket (warne lbw to cook very early on day 4). There were some in the earlier tests too.

Posted by: Peter 3 days, 21 hours ago

Ashish, you're a dill. You know full well that Warne & Mark Waugh weren't involved in "match fixing" (and if they were, tell us which match) - same can't be said of Azzarudin and some others from the sub-continent though huh?

And to try and bring Warne down and question his statistics because of isolated performances on the sub-continent shows a bias that you probably wouldn't be happy to have applied to say...Sachin Tendulkar. Does he play the big innings when they are really needed? Has he helped India win Test matches outside of India? How often? Should we question his greatness then? Of course not....

Posted by: Dan 3 days, 21 hours ago

Australia faces the imminent retirement of two of cricket's all-time great players, namely Adam Gilchrist and Shane Warne. Both have revolutionised their craft, Gillie with the bat and Warne with his leg-spin. Both are mercurial on their day and are irreplaceable. Cricket, and not just Aussie cricket, should truly appreciate what wonderfully gifted players they are.
On the subject of umpiring, yes there have been some mistakes in this series. But let's not call Rudi's decision to raise the finger to Strauss in the second dig in Perth an error. Any player who does not offer a shot deserves no benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: JIm 3 days, 21 hours ago

Re the umpiring question. If you support introducing more technology (personally I don't), the initiative with greatest impact would be to apply Hawkeye or some similar system to all LBW shouts. Advantages:
1. LBW decisions generate a greater number of contentious umpiring decisions than other decisions. Using Hawkeye would remove the most frequent source of biased/incompetent accusations.
2. Even if you don't believe Hawkeye gets it right all the time, at least decisions would be consistent for all batsmen.
3. No on-field histrionics from bowlers.
4. No interruption to natural flow of game (as would happen under an appeals system, or does happen today with a third umpire referral). Hawkeye verdicts are near-instantaneous.

Posted by: Rhino 3 days, 20 hours ago

OK Ashish and his fellow idiots - let's get one thing straight here and now - if you're going to judge Warne as a bowler, leave his off-field indiscretions out of the equation. He never applied for the position of Pope or that of Mother Teresa's successor - he's a cricketer - and without a shadow of a doubt, the best spin bowler in history - and it's daylight second. Whether you look at it from a statistical point of view, or from a matchwinner perspective, Warne comes up trumps on both counts. Great point about Tendulkar, Pete - couldn't agree more. And you can add this to the equation Ashish. If you're going to denigrate Warne for supposedly underperforming on subcontinental dust-bowl wickets, you can apply the same judgement to Tendulkar. How often does he really shine on English, South African, Australian or New Zealand wickets? And as Pete so rightly pointed out - how many matches has he won for India outside of India? Now Ashish, if all that sounds like rubbish to you - how do you think your anti-Warne crap sounds? I think you've been SMOKING 'ashish...

Posted by: andrew 3 days, 20 hours ago

to YG.
don't forget the full toss last year from brett lee that hit KP right in front of middle stump and didn't get given cause the umpire didn't see it.

Posted by: bazza 3 days, 20 hours ago

Warne not the grestest spinner of all time? How do we compare? Kartlkeya mentions Saqlain and Murali as possible contenders?

The measure of a bowler is how he performs, not only at home, and home on the sub continent has often meant pitches prepared for home bowlers, but more importantly away. The relative career averages for these three upto current tests sand as follows
Home
Warne 26, Saqlain 29, Murali 19
Away
Warne 25, Saqlain 30, Murali 24

In Australia
Warne 26, Saqlain 34, Murali 63

In Pakisatan
Warne 28, Saqlain 29

In Sri Lanka

Warne 20, Murali 19

By any measure Warne has shwn his greatness by his ability to take wickets better than aby other spin bowler anywhere in the world.

As an inside I think Indian spin bowlere would be more than happy with an average of 40 in tests in India. Kumble , a very good spinner can only average 36 in tests in Indai so how can you say warne has failed???

By the way Warne has only played 3 tests against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe combined whilst murali has racked up 20 for nearly 100 of his tally of wickets. Iti s only logical to assume that Warne would have amother 90 or so in the bag if he had this opportunity and we would be looking for his 800th in Melbourne.

Posted by: Bazza 3 days, 20 hours ago

My sincere apologies to Kumble, he, of course averages 23 in home tests but 40 in Australia where Warne averages 26. by this measure he is of course a more adaptable bowler than Murali with his 63 average in Australia. Of course none of us would rank Kumble a better bowler than Murali, would we? Which just goes to prove that raw figures alone cannot measure the worth of a bowler. Warne was ranked as one of the 5 cricketers of the century for the complete package and the complete package is incomparable! He is simply the best and the father of modern spin bowling.

Posted by: PTB Doc 3 days, 19 hours ago

Look Warne's brilliant, we all know that. But I think that something has to be done about the overappealing. I think Rudi's been having a bit of a shocker for a while now, but incredibly he seemed to turn down Warne's appeals correctly yesterday, when I expected him to cave in and give one that only Warne and Ian Healy in the comm box believed was out. Didn't see the Harmy dismissal today (Ch 9 wouldn't show it in their news highlights), but from what the ABC boys were saying Rudi may have finally caved in just on lunch today.
Also, I think Punter really needs to rip the ball out of Warne's hands and stop these long spells. Yesterday Ian Bell probably extended Warne's spell and threw away a century by trying to smash that garden gnome at short cover, only to see it reach up and do a great impersonation of Justin Langer.
On the level of umpiring, please don't go down the way of replays etc. Shocking LBW's decisions give us all something to whinge about in the pub. We're barely getting 90 overs in 6 and a half hours at the moment, let's not give the players a further excuse to lose even more time.
And I wouldn't trust that hawkeye thing as far as I could toss the joint smoking chimp they get to operate it. Seems to come up with some absolute "magic bullets" from time to time, and if they seriously think that thing can predict or extrapolate a swinging delivery as it slows down I'll pick up the tab on the chimp's next load of ganji.

Posted by: JimDavis 3 days, 18 hours ago

Am I right in believing that Mr Warne needs only 14 more wickets to be the first man to 200 ashes wickets? Maybe if he just fails to get there in Sydney, that could be the spur for him to keep going to 2009 :-)

Posted by: Lashan 3 days, 18 hours ago

Well I think bradmon of bowling would definilty be murali.Simply if u think of 5 wkt halls as a century and a 10 wkt hall as a double century he has 59 centuries and 19 double centuries which even makes bradmon small.But warne only have 36 hundreds and 10 double hundreds which is limited for the best batsmen in current era.This clearly show how succesful murali has been in wkt taking business

Posted by: Tadhg 3 days, 18 hours ago

Umpires - can't catch an even break! I know there have been some incorrect decisions. But I'm against the option of "appealing" a decision. Why? This removes authority from the umpire, and places the players above the law. Honestly, do we expect a bowler who's falling through his follow through and a bunch of blokes who either aren't in line with the stumps (close fielders, slips) or can't see where the ball hit the batsman or occasionally the bat (keeper) to have a better idea of exactly what the ball did than the umpire (LBW's, some leg side catches)? At the end of the day, they have the best position in the world to make the decision. Sure, technology improves the viewing, and maybe "Hotspot" and Snicko would be handy for the umpires (I'm not keen on Hawkeye - especially for spinners, where it only gets a short view of what a delivery's doing after it pitches) might be useful for the umpires. But, as someone who watched the "Super Series" last year, where they trialled referral of any decision to the third umpire, and, like most who saw it, didn't like it, I still think that the technology doesn't add enough. Which is better to watch - Lee, Warne, Panesar, begging an umpire for a decision and watching them celebrate or stop and give a death stare, or watching them appeal, then wait, then have lost their excitement at the decision, when the 3rd umpire finally gives it? Cricket, like most sport, works best when it flows. Even when Warne waits at the top of his run, or when Pietersen spent a while gardening with Clark at the top of his run, the game is still flowing - it's just having the pace naturally varied by the protagonists. The 3rd umpire feels artificial for many things.
I think we all need to look at the man who has "suffered" the most at the hands of these obviously diabolically-minded umpires - Andrew Strauss. He has every right to be angry. But I don't know that I've seen a better display of avoiding dissent. An "appeal the decision" system would only increase dissent, at least on field dissent. Strauss' behaviour is something that a lot of players should follow, his calmness and attitude could be looked at, perhaps, by another left-handed South African born opener... Not to mention a huge number of others who should realize that there's no point worrying about something you can't control.
Oh, and, on Strauss, Pietersen, and Koertzen, Koertzen shouldn't be umpiring, because he's a South African, and so were Strauss and Pietersen... Just stirring the pot. I'd have no problem with an Ashes match umpired by Taufel and Bensen.

Posted by: ohwhatawarnederfulday 3 days, 18 hours ago

Really can't see a great deal of benefit in taking away the "human element" when it comes to umpiring decisions(excepting run outs/stumpings).As an expat Aussie in the UK (a non pay TV subscriber to boot) the joys of having a 3AM coffee & toast session listening to the cricket is hard to beat.The atmosphere that comes across is one thing but surely the best is the ability to enjoy what we all do...people talking about the game! The momentum changes,the flurry of boundaries,bringing on a bowling change to a nervous starter & of course the controversy of the last wicket..was it to high? was it going down leg? did he hit it? How many times have we seen someone given LB' on the strength of a few good shouts in previous overs when the ball in question is just that..questionable! Straight away tho we all start musing about the previous overs & the pressure built up..wonderful stuff !all taken away if we have to wait doe eyed for a computer to tell us how our emotions should fare...
Warney's place at the table of cricketing greats is assured.For all the jealous naysayers I ask you to sit back & think about the HUGE impact this guy has had on the game in so many ways.Just like the income of professional golfers has gone crazy since tiger came into the game have a look at the income to the game for players etc since Warney took on a Nike deal & crickets pay TV'"second" coming (thanks for the first Kerry !)gave all the players & associations at the top level a whole new world of opportunity led by mr Charisma himself..
Will be up late listening to you take your 700th Warney!! As an Aussie & a Victorian to boot I am thrilled you will take your bow on home turf at the G'.We should all be thankful for what he's brought to the game,even the scandals made great reading!!

Posted by: Nicholas 3 days, 17 hours ago

On the topic of 3rd umpires for lbw decisions, I personally am not in favour of the move. It takes away the human element of the game, and as has been mentioned already, the timelss seconds when the umpire decides whether or not the batsman is out is when the adrenaline really pumps, why would you want to take that away.

On the topic of Shane Warne, he is simply one of the best ever, no questions asked, and although England may be poor at spin bowling, they've had years to get it right, they should be good at it by now. Also, the bias against Warne is perhaps slightly hypocritical. As has been mentioned, I'm sure that Lara or Tendulkar have made most of their runs at home, yet their performances away are not as great. No one should question anyone's greatness, every player has their own strengths and weaknesses. Greatness is never questioned, only accepted.

Posted by: raj 3 days, 17 hours ago

and not a word on this bowler's shameful antics on the field - doenst he deserve atleast a ten match ban for his threatneing and disrespectful gestures to umpires over the years - not even a single reprimand has been issued to him in these years - Mr Heigh, had this been Muralitharan,w oudlnt you havementioned in passing something like "...always been controversial, what with blah blah, but today he showed his genius with the ball..".
Ofcourse, this is what subtle racism is all about, isnt it?
I dare you to publish this - if you dont, you would expose your character, wouldnt you?

Posted by: Greg 3 days, 17 hours ago

I think that Gideon Haigh is very hash on the current umpires. They have done a good over a long long period and in the heat and have made few errors. Justin may have forgotten some poor umpire decisions in England 2005. Example 4th test Trent Bridge, Nottingham, Flintoof should have been LBW Warne for 0 but went on to make 102. England went on to 477 total and set the match (by 3 wickets) and series to a 2-1 lead.

Posted by: Navin Pinto 3 days, 15 hours ago

i think ashish suffers from the "small penis" problem being from the subcontinent. Warne is the greatest bowler that ever lived. Murali is a javelin-thrower and Saqlain (lol-where is he these days??). I hope Warne tours India again so that he can set his record straight!

Posted by: Doug 3 days, 14 hours ago

@Dan: >

I've heard another Aussie supporter offer the same excuse. What a shame there isn't a clause in the Law that states when it is or isn't relevant for a batsman to be playing a shot, huh? Oh, wait... :headslap:

Strauss has been traduced three times out of the last four - so much for it all evening out in the end!

Posted by: ashish 3 days, 11 hours ago

well peter my knowledge abt warne and mark waugh involment in match fixing is only limited to the extent that they had made an written statement to the australian cricket board accepting that and thereon fines were levied on them. this report was known to the icc but was not only not made public but not even shared with other board. wonder that would have happpened with any sub continental player.
as far as indian or the sub continent players are concerned no one has admittted anything and the bans are more to fulfill the public demand or a populalist measure rather than anything else. i would like to know on what basis ur saying that the indian players case is different.
now concerning warne's performance or rather non- performance agaisnt india.
well as far as my knowledge goes i think ur measured by wht u have done agaisnt the very best. if ur a spinner u have to prove urself agaisnt the best teams and the best players in adverse conditions and thts where warne fails miserably. if by taking the wickets of enlish batsmen and soth africans and kiwis and so on who cant play damn spin , if he becomes the greatest spinner of all time, sorry mate cant accept that. he will also be measured by what he has done agaisnt india especially in india because thats where the challenge lies and here he has failed. not for a moment saying that he is not a great spinner but the greatest spinner of all times, sorry he cant be. not only that u have to remember that aus. always had very gud pace bowling attack and he would come and replace them and thereofore continue the gud work done by their opening pace bowlers and he has failed there as well.
as far as tendulkar is concerned, just do on thing for me, tell me the name of one batsmen who has done the following things:
has been considered a child prodigy.
has made his international debut at the age of 16 and has never been out of the side because of poor form.
from the time he has been carrying the hopes of entire nation without any support.
when i say there is no support, i mean there is no t a single bowler whom india can trust to claim 20 wickets oversees, there is no other batsmen who india can trust to even partner tendulkar when playing oversees.
inspite of these and the fact more than 1 billion people in india consider him god and expect a hundred every innings, and he has delievered more often than not.
more often not it has been he who has single handedly carried out the fight to the opposition without any support from the bowlers and batsmen.
inspite of all that his consistency has been remarkable. no, dont take my words for it, see the records from his debut till 2001 and you would come to know, go and watch the innings that he has played in perth and sydney in 92 and then u wud probabaly understand what tendulkar is????
but probably u wont, coz tendulkar isnt just a cricketer to the indians, he is much more than that, but to understand this u have to be an indian.

Posted by: Chris 3 days, 11 hours ago

McGrath gets most of the big wickets for Australia, a high proportion of Warne's victims are tailenders (actually the highest proportion among all bowlers with over 300 wickets). McGrath has caused the very best like Lara and Tendulkar difficulties - Warne just gets hammered against them. McGrath is far more consistent and much less reliant on conditions - he hardly ever has a bad series and can boast a good record against all teams (worst average 25), while Warne averages nearly 50 against India and 40 in West Indies. Also Warne is very dependant upon the presence of McGrath and averages a Kumbleesque 28 without him, while McGrath is relatively unaffected by the presence of Warne.

Statistically the battle for the title of Australia's best bowler is a no contest and IMO those people that prefer Warne are simply following the typical ill educated media bandwagon.

Posted by: Karthik 3 days, 10 hours ago

Instead of putting the onus on the team to challenge an upires decision, why can we leave the umpire to make the ruling. The ICC should allow the umpire to consult with the 3rd umpire on any ruling. The ICC should give the match refree and the 3rd umpire the power to call the field umpire on the hand set and ask him to overturn any wrong ruling. It is ridiculous that the 3rd umpire and match refree will sit and watch like us the spectators and not be able to do antyhing. All is the name that cricket is a game of glorious uncertainities... sigh

Posted by: Chris 3 days, 5 hours ago

Talk of Warney not bowling so well in the sub-continent does not make him not a great spin bowler. Warney can take wickets at grounds that are considered spin bowlers graveyards. No-Hype, Warney doesn't select the opposition he plays against. Maybe England should select a team that can play spin well when they know Warney's going to be in the side. Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder in regard to the Australian team.

Posted by: John 3 days, 4 hours ago

Do you remember what test cricket was like prior to Shane Warne? The art of spin bowling was a lost art and bowling attacks consisted of a four pronged pace attack.
Say what you will about him, but he transformed the modern game for the better.

Posted by: Ahmed 3 days, 2 hours ago

Kartekiya's comments are very well informed and reflect the observations of a genuine crciket conneiseur. I also have had serious reservations of Wisden's credibility since the naming of the 5 Wisden Cricketers of the Century. The fact that Warne is the only bowler of the five automatically implies that he is the best bowler of all time which is a total nonsense. Again we need to put things into perspective and ask ourselves, when it comes to the crunch and the need arises to dismiss the best players in the world today (i.e. Lara, Dravid, Tendulkar, Inzimam, Pietersen, Fleming etc) and suppose you could only choose one of the great Australian Bowlers in the current team - would you want to have Warne or McGrath available to do the job ? I am sure that 90% of knowledgeable cricket followers would prefer Glenn McGrath. To further stress the point, I thought it was pertinent that the best Australian bowler I have ever seen, Dennis Lillee, on the eve of McGrath's 500th Test wciket, rated McGrath the 4th best bowler of his time behind, Akram, Ambrose and Marshall and I totally agreed with Lillee's assessment. In my own view this makes Warne no better than the 5th best bowler of his OWN era so what about the enitre history of Cricket? But that is not to denigrate Warne overly. He is still a tremendously skilled great bowler but we need to have some balance and perspective with regards to his status in the game particularly with so many emotive scribes annointing him as the 'Bradman of Bowling'. It is also pertinent to discuss the Career of Warne when we extol the virtues of using technology for umpiring decisions. Justin is spot-on when highlighting the anomaly of using technology to decide whether a ball reached a boundary but not considering it important enough for judging LBW's caught behinds, bat-pads etc.

Typically Warne gets at least one wicket per test Match that is NOT OUT either through lbws to balls that pitched outside leg, or balls that pitched in line but would have spun well past the stumps or the controversial bat pad-catches that are given more due to the vociferous orchestrated appealing - which Warne has made an Art-form of - than any concrete evidence that the ball hit the bat. Examples that quickly spring to Mind - Harmison in this test, Strauss last Test, Ashwell Prince 5 times last summer, Lara in Hobart last summer also, Yousuf, Sami and Akmal 2nd inns Melbourne 2 seasons ago, Trescothick at edgbaston 2001 (technology was used to determine whether the ball hit the ground or not when it bounced of Hayden's foot before Gilchrist caught it. The same technology showed that it was a no-ball but was not taken into account); Tendulkar at Adelaide 1999. Hansie Cronje in the 1999 World Cup semi; Even Paul Wiseman's (#356, the wicket that broke Lillee's record) was off the arm.
Warne has had a GREAT run with umpires sometimes I wonder whether he gets a great run with the umpires because he is Test Cricket's leading Wicket-taker or whether he is Test Cricket's leading Wicket-taker because he gets such a great run with the umpires. Sure there will have been several instances of Warne thinking he had his man but was given not out, but we need to remember that the game is built on the foundation of giving batsmen the benefit of the doubt (therefore every great bowler would have grounds for claiming a raw deal over the course of their careers) but I have seen enough crciket to know that Warne seems to be the exception to the rule. It would not be difficult for those who have the resources at their disposal to compile a Video of all of Warne's dismissals and It may suprise many to find that the figure could be close to 200 that should NOT have been given out.

For this reason, it is imperative that the use of technology is increased for judging dismissals. Even if somehow it is proven to be not 100% accurate, it will certainly be 95% accurate but more importantly 99.9% consistent.

I don't subscribe to the argument that de-humanising umpire or turning them into 'robots' will diminish the game in anyway. It will in fact, improve it greatly and we need to remember that the game is all about the players anyway and NOT the umpires. Occasionally we do get an Umpire whose Charisma appeals to the Public (e.g Dickie Bird, Dave Shepherd and Bucknor in his earlier days - but definitely NOT Bowden) but the games is all about the great deeds of players and too often, in my view some great records are unfairly diminished whilst some others are over-inflated due to human error at wbest and occasionally bias at worst. We have the technology available to improve this aspect of the game. We SHOULD use it !

Posted by: kyle 3 days, 1 hour ago

ashish-
to say that warne is neither the greatest bowler and spinner in the history of the game is simply ridiculas. If not warne than who is? and yes check the stats. he has taken lara's wicket 7 times, dravids 8. I do agree that in india warne has not been so brilliant, but give the guy a break, hes just unstoppable every where else. Does failing in india undo everything he is done in his career? Warne is the best the worlds has ever seen. Lets not deny the greastest BOWLER of all time his title.

Posted by: Houston 3 days, 1 hour ago

I agree that the odd umpiring error we have witnessed so far in the ashes have not changed the course of the tests - england have been well and truly outplayed. I'm not that keen to start referring too many decisions to the 3rd umpire - I think it takes away a little from the umpires responsibility, but also from the players attitude (would Gilly still walk, or wait from 3rd umpire). As for the challenge option, well they are trying it in tennis, and it seems to be working, I just still think the way they have it at the moment seems to work pretty well (and it adds to the post match banter :-)
As for Warne been the best, well that will always be debated, but what cannot go denied is that he is undoubtedly a match winner and I don't think there is a team in the world that would not have him as their 1st pick bowler. His record may not be as impressive on the sub continent, but he still does well, and that argument can be applied to great sun continent batsmen who perform less well overseas. Say what you like about Warne and his theatrics and off field behaviour, what he has done for cricket is fantastic. I personally prefer Murali as I think players respect him a little more.

Posted by: mike 3 days ago

Hello all. I am an Aussie and proud of it.
I have read all your comments regarding how good/bad the Australian cricketers are in your eyes but you fail to miss 1 very important fact... Dad's Army beat the English team very convincingly by playing hard, tough cricket. Umpiring decisions come and go. Great play does not. (Ticker and skill count for a lot in any sport.)
We hear a lot of great stuff about Monty. Frankly when compared to Warne he looks like a Saturday afternoon trundler. All I got to say about Warne is 699! The greatest wicket taker in test history.
Start banging on about batsmen. Which one of the English team has not improved their average against Bangladesh and failed miserably eysewhere?
The message is the Ashes are where they belong simply due to the unassailable fact that the English contingent (players, managers and support crew) have been out-played and out-thought by a very professional unit. This trend may not continue but for now it is 3-o Australia and they are looking at making that 5!
By the way... Do these Aussie players get an OBE for their efforts lol...?

Posted by: andrew 2 days, 23 hours ago

murali has more 5 & 10 wicket hauls because there is no-one else in his team to get wickets! it is hard for warne to get wickets when there is mcgrath, lee, gillespie taking heaps of wickets before he even gets a bowl. warne is the greatest spinner ever, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

Posted by: marcus 2 days, 23 hours ago

Ashish- Warne and Mark Waugh didn't actually fix a match, what they actually did was give pitch and weather information to a bookmaker. That's why they only recieved fines, rather than bans.

Kyle- how can you say that Warne's the greatest BOWLER of all time? That's impossible to measure. Is he a better spin bowler than Dennis Lillee, Malcolm Marshall or Syd Barnes are as pace bowlers? That's like saying that Johnny Cash is a better singer than Luciano Parvarotti- they're just too different to say that one of them is better than the other. I think Kartikeya's right. Benaud thinks that Warne's the greatest, Sobers prefers Subhash Gupte, Bradman chose Grimmett and O'Reilley in his all-time team. Who's to say that not one of them could have done better than Warne playing today?

Posted by: kyle 2 days, 21 hours ago

marcus- good point, my opinion is based on the fact that he has 699 wickets and noone else has. i guess comparing bowlers of differant eras is quite stupid. ill compramise and say that warne is the best spin bowler of our era. Mabye my earier comments were poorly thought out, for that i apologise.

Posted by: sharoz 2 days, 20 hours ago

warne is the greatest spinner EVER! ashish if u thnk warne isnt the greatest than who is?besides if a player is measured on how he performs against the best then warne has performed against sri lanka and pakistan as well .Its only india IN india where he hasnt been able to perform who do you think is the greatest spinner anywayz????warne is the greatest .Period:P

Posted by: ashish 2 days, 19 hours ago

well lets keep the record straight, warne is a great, one of the all time greats, but the greatest, not at all.
as it has been pointed out by some others tht mcgrath is a better bowler than warne and i totally agree with it.
kyle says tht just coz warne hasnt succeeded in india,doesnt mean tht it sudnt mean that he is not the greatest, well mate when warne was up against the most challenging time of his career and up agaisnt the players who play spin better than anyone else, he came up a cropper and not just once but thrice, and tht means tht all tht hoopla around warne is rubbish, he has failed hi test miserbly more so when u look into the fact that he has got support in the form of having a top class pace bowling attack and a very good batting line up whih always made sure that the bowlers would always end up defending a big total.
as far as tendulkar is concerned, just look at his record in australia, south africa and england, no need for me to say it, and yes while looking in those numbers just keep the following in mind tht more often tnan not, atleast till 2001, he was the only batsmen taking the fight to the opposition day in and day out, there was no bowler in the team nor india had the bowling attack which gave the confidence to the batsmen tht even a low score can be defended,and te pressure tht he faced, inspite of tht just look at this record and his consistency, u will get the answer. as far as how any matches he won for india, well my knowledge of cricket tells me tht its the bowlers who wins the test matches while batsmen setting up big totals, and needless to say india did not had any bowling attack nor any other batsmen apart from tendulkar to make enough runs on the board. and still tendlkars consistency and his big scores are there, go and see it, no need for me to tell u.
its a fact tht most of the team are not gud players of spin including the australians themselves especially their captain ricky ponting, and therefore tht definately dilutes his achievement a bit. is tht his mistake, no, definately not, but if someone has done it better than him than the credit should go to him.
i have never seen subhas gupte, only read abt him. but if someone like sobers says tht he is the greayest spinner of all times, well he has to be gud, but i think the greatest spinner of all time has to be murali, he has done well against indians, probably the only spinner in the modern day era to do so, he has taken wickets without any support from the other end, i think wht tendulkar faced, the same has been with murali and for me he is the greatest.
navin pinto says murali is a javalin thrower, well i think there are better experts than u mate who are sitting in the icc, and if they have given the clean chit to murali well then for me their view matter and not pinto's view. so keep ur view to urself.
as far as warne off field activity is concerned, of course he is no saint, but probably there not many probably for say tendulkar. the reason im mentioning tendulkar here is tht these two are one of the greatest but the similarities end there only. no need for me to elaborate on this, im sure the readers know abt all this, but the fact is that match fixing is not off the field activity. marcus says he and mark waugh only provided pitch information and weather information. but mate they gave tht for money, and this comes under within the purview of match fixing and most importantly why was tht information not made public, why did the icc kept the information secret for four years, and if tht was no offence why they were penalised by the australian cricket board, the very fact that they were penalised points to the fact that they had committed an offence.
for me warne would always would live witht the tag o a match fixer no matter wht he achieves agaisnt batsmen who cant play damn spin.

Posted by: Warren 2 days, 18 hours ago

Dang u guys r tough, there are 2 spin bowlers that top the list as far as i can see, Shane Warne and Muralitheran, now the 1 question i do ask is this: How many have each spinner taken that have been top order batsmen, middle order batsmen and lower order batsmen and i dont care what continent they play on the figured will tell not the players they faced.

More 3rd umpire, who needs more time wasting or challenges to take up time. the commentating and the replay or the hawk-eye give a view or perspective that isnt straight from the umps eyes replace the umps eyes with cameras and there u go he see only 1 view his and goes from instincts and gut feeling and experience. Dont try nad fix what isnt broken.

Posted by: alsch 2 days, 14 hours ago

My favourite moment this series has been Warne uttering "What happened?" because he missed Jones being run-out due to his immediate excessive appealing!

Warne, one of the worlds best cricketers of all time. Definitely. Test cricket is going to be a far worse place without him. Someone mentioned that Australia will be losing two of their best ever players soon (gilchrist and warne), i am wondering why McGrath didnt get included there, he will retire sooner rather than later and certainly deserves to be uttered in the same breath. OK, so Warne has played more than previous candidates but that does bring with it extra stresses and strains. As for the appealing, I find it amusing, which I why I also love watching Monty bowl as well. I know why it is closely monitored but it adds a bit of exitement sometimes.

I have to disagree with YG, who seemed to be incapable of taking an objective view. OK, McGrath was unlucky but to call any of the disputed Strauss'dismisals as 50-50 is a bit of a disservice to one of Englands better batsmen. You can mention all the bad decisions from 2005 but Strauss has been unlucky as any of those. Not that another few overs would have made the blind bit of difference, England have been outplayed, out-batted, out-bowled out-mindgamed, by Australia. Something that struck me at the weekend was actually seeing the difference in intensity between an Ashes test and any other test match. I was casually flicking between a repeat of Englands demise and the play from South Africa and India which seemed like a friendly bat in the park in comparison, I only hope that if England gain anything from this series it is further building of character, as in the case of Ian Bell.

Having said all that, even the most staunch Aussie would have to admit that this England team contains far more ability than any we have seen for many years. Whilst the 3-0 scoreline is highly deserved that is not to say that England haven't put up a fight, just not constantly for a whole test. I still wake up sweating from the nightmare of Adelaide!

The biggest difference between the two sides? Ricky Ponting, who has finally laid to rest the ghosts of 2005 and emerged as not only one of the best batsmen in the world (ever?) but also a great captain leading by example.

Enough has been written about Husseys contribution, he has certainly put in a claim for player of the series.

Roll on the MCG.

Posted by: Tim 2 days, 8 hours ago

Let's celebrate our champions, not count them. What are we all, accountants?

Posted by: marcus 2 days, 3 hours ago

Ashish- What Mark Waugh and Shane Warne did was WRONG, no doubt about it, and I never said otherwise. What I did say was that there's a world of difference between giving pitch information to a bookie, and deliberately throwing a match, like Cronje and Azharuddin did. Of course it's an offence, but just not on the same level as match-throwing.

Posted by: k 2 days, 1 hour ago

Enron accountants by the look of things.

Posted by: Richard 1 day, 23 hours ago

The umpiring decisions even out in the end. Immature people don't understand the significance of that fact. In a word: It doesn't matter.

Provided of course, there is a continued enforcement of neutral umpires in India and Pakistan. (Case in point: backflip on the Nandralone cheats and Afridi doing the twist on a good length).
Great bowlers: Using straight bowling arms as the prerequisite for greatness, the three greatest bowlers of recent times are Warne; DK Lillee & MD Marshall. All things considered.

One more point - I think the way Australian's score is the philosophy behind their dominance in cricket. Wickets are the key to winning a Test match, therefore they carry a greater importance and should be noted first. Other teams need to learn that. To me this is clearly evident.

Posted by: Richard 1 day, 23 hours ago

Quote from alsch

My favourite moment this series has been Warne uttering "What happened?" because he missed Jones being run-out due to his immediate excessive appealing!

Unquote

Excessive, ay?

Yes you could look at it that way if you are bloody minded, or one could see it differently (read more intelligently) and realise that so ingrained in Warne's theatrics as he was, Jones was spellbound into forgetting to get behind his crease. Warne 'took' that wicket. That's what sets him apart from the rest. He makes things happen. That World Cup Semi Final against South Africa was the same. Long live the great Shane Warne. May his eve

Shane Warne is a great bowler.The whole world knows about it. But why on earth people make a real fuss on poor Murali on Warne's retirement.That shows their poor sportsmanship,selfishness & cruelty.This will make Murali more stronger.At this moment I salute to a great bowler Australia has ever produced.

warne was a wonderful bowler.but alas being an indian my memories of warne are those of him being slaughtered and manhandled by indian batsmen on spinning tracks.those who point to murali's record in australia,well he has played only 3 matches down under ,warne has played more than 12 in india.forget murali,warne is not the greatest australian bowler even of his generation,that is mcgrath.mcgrath has performed everywhere and does not become a hapless trundler when bowling to a tendulkar or a lara.mcgrath has took on both lara and sachin and emerged honourable unlike warne who had (perhaps still has)nightmares of being clobbered by sachin.to those who deride murali's wickets against bangladesh and zimbabwe,well,england in the 90's played spin as if they were constipated,you could say "spin" and they would surrender.south africa finds spin alien till this day.to those who doubt murali's action read this carefully LEE MCGRATH GILLESPIE ALL HAD FLEXES MORE THAN 10 DEGREES ,MURALI'S WAS LESS THAN 10 DEGREES (INCLUDING THE "DOOSRA").(THESE ARE OFFICIAL ICC RESULTS).murali may never improve his record in australia because of the disgraceful attitudes he has to bear down undr and i will respect his decision if he decides never to play in australia again,who would like to play in front of hooligans?and that aussie pm may better keep his mouth shut ,it spews nothing but rubbish.warne never had to bear with such idiots when he toured.

"Very good bowler, big personality but overrated. A creation of the Aussie and Anglo media-much like Bradman."

Ha....ha....ha.

Again.

Ha.

hmm very interesting to read all these comments. I accept that warne is one of the best bowler in the world. but I don't agree the way some of our former players and media named him as "legend" of all time. then how would you name Walsh, ambrose, wasim akram and so on..
I wonder, how come shane warne hasn't played that many games against bangladesh and zimbabay. when we compare murali and warne, there are so many factor we should consider. for example, amount of resources and expert's advice murali gets compared to warne. also we have to consider that australian batting line up is much better than any other team in world class cricket today. if warne plays against austrlian team, I bet warne's statistics would be much worse than murali's 63 average against Australia.
other main reason murali can't able to perform against well agaist australians is that failure of srilankans batsmen to make decent total on the board provide enough pressure on australian batsmen. even sometime when australian defeat srilankan by an innings, murali only gets one innings to show his magic talent.
when we compare stats between murali and warne, you should not include australian and srilankan sides.I recommend you to compare each one's performance against any other test playing nation individaully.
I respect warne achivements of modern type of cricket. he is one of the best cricketer in the world.

yes bowling legbreaks is difficult. I couldnot bowl three overs of leg breaks as the shoulder pained. I wonder how this great man did for so many years.
However, he may not be the greatest cricketer, there are many such as Bradman, Tendulkar, Botham, these were great thinkers and great cricketers, not warnie, please

To Mr. Colin (and Will)
sir
with due respect, i grovel to the enlightening wisdom of your advanced and superior thinking.you made us all subcontinental types realize our great folly.we reverse racists cry in repentance,waiting for you to lift us from this deprived state to a better life.we are sure you will not mind this burden, for your vision alone can end this disease of ours.as you ordered ,we will stop murali from bowling to bangladesh and zimbabwe.master,if you ask we may debar that chucker from ever bowling again.if you order we will put behind bars the blasphemous sinners who had the temerity to question master warne's unparalleled and unblemished greatness.my dear sir,these spineless anarchists deserve no less.if it were not for you and your people's benevolence and unwavering belief in mercy for the natives,we may deal with these thugs,these blots on our proud tradition of uncomplaining service,much more harshly.sir,pardon me,but too much latitude is given to us underdeveloped morons.see the icc gave a clean chit to this murali..hmm..er...m,well,to this chucker(what kind of names we people still have?simply unpronounciable!)and to quell righteous voices of protest against such softfooting ,said that mr.mcgrath also straightened his arms,even more than that lankan bandit!horror!sir!horror!political correctness has gone too far!its time you masters tightened the leashes on us subcontinental types or else my people will continue to besmirch this glorious game you bestowed upon us wretched folks.how ashamed i am of my own people sir!all this reverse racism!these people are just rabble rousers,they evoke memories of nonexistent things like racism and fuel their kitchenfires.sir!i render my hopelessly inadequate apologies to master warne on behalf of my ungrateful,wretched people who dared to question his right.

Shane warne is a legend of the game and will be sorly missed. Gives mcgill a good oppurtunity though.

Ive read through the blogs and most relating to shane warne, has had people commenting on how they think murali is the superior bowler and they would love to see warne go. how is this possible? how can any true cricketing purist want to see a good player leave.

As for the warne vs murali debate- whos cares, they both awesome players and both deserve the respect i believe they have earned. So some think murali is better, fine, but do not try and tarnish warne just because of your views (and vise versa). To be realistic, it is impossible to measure who is the best. Some rely on stats, others measure with what each have bought to the game. To be honest i feel they are equals.

Warne is an good bowler not an great bowler.
His record against India is too bad . Infact he has been dominated by most of the Indian batsman and they toyed around his bowling.

Also Mcgrath is an better bowler than Warne. He targeted the best batsman of opposition and performed everywhere. Warne just utilised the pressure that had been created by Mcgrath and picked up wickets.

Murali is an even superior bowler to Warne. Most of the time he is the only strike bowler, he creates pressure and earns his wicket by bowling good balls not by cajoling the umpire.

And in this series, even some English batsman have comfortable played Warne. That is the ultimate proof of an ordinary slow bowler.

Yes it will be a terribly sad day when the fat man spins his last ball in test cricket but I think Warnie has made the right call.

What a perfect way for him to go out. Warnie has ensured the Ashes have been reclaimed and now these last two tests, which were looking like fizzers, will turn into the Warnie Lap of Honour at two of the best grounds in world cricket. On top of that it will put interest back into a dead series and give Warnie the spotlight he deserves and thrives on.

But despite the excitement these next two tests will now bring, there will ultimately have to be a let down when the great man goes. Test cricket will never be the same without him, he could turn a dull days play into an edge of the seat thriller, just like the last day in Adelaide.

To all those pathetic Warne knockers out there just stop and think about how much less exciting the game will be without him. Getting rid of Warnie is like voting out the nasty stirrer bloke in Big Brother, you might not like him but it is boring as hell without him.

Although I believe that Warnie has made the right decision to finish now, it still wouldn't surprise me if he made one last comeback for the UK Ashes tour in 2009. After all he will be playing the next couple of seasons in Hampshire and should still be in pretty good nick.

You can just imagine the stage for his comeback being set if England are on top in that series and are leading 2-0 with the Aussies struggling. The call for Warnie to make a comeback will be enormous. Then just imagine if he answers that call and then bowls Australia to a 3-2 series victory. Its not unthinkable for a guy that writes his own scripts is it?

Check Murali's stats in India and you'll see he averages just under 4 wickets per test as does Warne(31 from 8, to Warnes 34 from 9). He gets his wickets at 4 runs cheaper than Warne.

Both are fantastic bowlers, and, to rubbish one is to rubbish the other imo.

with out saying too much, one fact is right. warnie is the best spinner ever, everything about him is so special,from skills to mental strenth.
ASK ANY CAPTIAN FROM ANY ERA

(i just suggest to poeple that say against warnie, get your self proper reasons why hes not the best or shut up)stop talking garbage.

what the bloody hell is shawry on about!! ridiculous..

Very interesting to read those comments indeed! But those people who say that Warne is overrated either do not know much of cricket to appreciate it when it is at its best or have certain misconceptions about rating a great player that he is. Any cricket fan who observes the game carefully, will agree with me that cricket resembles a form of art when played at its best may it be bowling or batting or even fielding! Sobers, Richards, Tendulkar, Dravid, Lara, Jonty Rhodes, Murali, Kumble, McGrath (etc etc)and WARNE -- all these exponents have earned cricket the reckoning of a 'beautiful game'. Warne's greatness lies in his ability to turn the ball like never bfore! and of course wickets to reinstate his statement. Yes, his wickets against India are the least and thats because they are the best when it comes to handling spin bowling (the same doesnt go for pace). Does that matter for someone who is close to picking up 700 wickets! Why talk about his off field antics, his personal life and other totally irrelevant information! He deserves a great farewell for being such a great cricketer and entertainer and his immense contribution to cricket..

Would it not be appropriate to temper sentiments of bias and rather give thanks that we all had the opportunity to witness such prosperous and memorable times in the life of Test cricket, and like it or not, Shane Warne has been a large part of it. Rather than snipe at shallow comparisons, give credit to what a remarkable game Test Cricket has grown in to - phenomenal run rates, no boring draws, televised all over the world into the homes of billions. Shane Warne added to the interest and drama that we all love about cricket - at least give him that (and his 700th wicket - Kevin Pieterson bowled round his legs for nought, brilliant!)

He's just magical !!! Watching him bowl is one of the most exciting things about watching any test that Australia plays..

Subhash Gupte is the greatest.This guy can bowl only legbreaks and bowl maidens between legs.

Come on guys, let's give credit where credit is due. After all, Warne is the first to take 700 wickets. Agreed, he has had a hard time against India, but that's because the Indian batsmen have played him cleverly: in his own words, "by jumping out of the crease at everything I bowled". That's a good strategy against any spin bowler, let alone Warnie. What needs to be appreciated is that through all the drama and controversy surrounding his career, he has never let his shoulders droop and is ready to take the ball in hand and walk up to bowl. That is an attitude prized by a captain in his bowlers. Warnie may not be the greatest bowler of all time, but he is certainly in the top five. As far as legspin goes, he together with Kumble has revived the dying art.

As far as the Warne vs Murali debate goes, it's pointless: like a Tendulkar vs Lara debate. It doesn't make sense to talk about a competition between the two, because both are great bowlers in their own right.

hi friends..not many of u know about bedi prasanna and company or subhash gupte.....warne had the benefit of some huge scores that his batsmen post ..u can have 5 close in fielders then..but murli and kumble aint that fortunate..kumble in particular..u need express pacemen to make the spinner effective attrctive and win matches..look at indias recent performance in south africa or lanka in new zealand...malinga and sreesanth showed how they could help these greats....so warne is among the top 3 of the modern era..and even in his recent india tour he was thrashed ..australia won coz of the bouncy nagpur pitch prepared to make the captain look bad ..politics in indian cricket ..and lack of firepower in the indian team..also the last day at chennai washed out due to rain...we were winnin that match..so warne has never dominated india..murali has..hats off to him......

hi friends..not many of u know about bedi prasanna and company or subhash gupte.....warne had the benefit of some huge scores that his batsmen post ..u can have 5 close in fielders then..but murli and kumble aint that fortunate..kumble in particular..u need express pacemen to make the spinner effective attrctive and win matches..look at indias recent performance in south africa or lanka in new zealand...malinga and sreesanth showed how they could help these greats....so warne is among the top 3 of the modern era..and even in his recent india tour he was thrashed ..australia won coz of the bouncy nagpur pitch prepared to make the captain look bad ..politics in indian cricket ..and lack of firepower in the indian team..also the last day at chennai washed out due to rain...we were winnin that match..so warne has never dominated india..murali has..hats off to him......

If all that counts to be a great spinner is to do well in India, then Michael Clarke must be the best spinner of all time. I think he averages... what, about 2 with the ball over there?

Anyone else been wondering what happens to Trumper the cat when Gideon goes to watch cricket?

Yo, Ausie idiots. You try to disparage Murali because of his wickets against Bangla, Zim. Respected yobs, England And Sa have produced more inept batsman against Spin in the last 20 years than Bangla and Zim in their entire history

Warne is certainly up there with the best I've seen. As far as his personal life goes - who gives a toss? and don't trot out the PC 'role model' crap out please.
As for Murali, he will be remembered fondly when he retires too, but neither of them are the best bowler I've seen. that title goes to Dennis Lillee.
Just my opinion remember.
When Murali goes they should name the Aust-SL test trophy the Warne-Muralitharan Cup, has a nice ring to it, much better than the Hair-Ranatunga Cup lol.

Yes it is sad that Warne is leaving. Everyone is correctly pointing out that he was the geatest bowler. But we should also acknowledge that the art of legspin has taken quite a blow as well. Warne had singlehandedly revived this dying art but who can carry on the mantle? Stuart McGill who never got quite made it to the side? but he's also no spring chicken now. Wish hw were born in another era. Danish Kaneria? although he needs to go a very long way. Who then?

Ok, so maybe he didn't achieve the same results, gained similar porularity or earn as much publicity, but isn't Qadir somehow equally as responsible for reviving the dead art of legspin.

In "An Illustrated History of Cricket", an acclaimed Wisden publication (1988), Vic Crace showers praise on Qadir for possessing the temperament of a fast bowler while practicing the guileful legspin trade. Of course in terms of ability, Qadir never got to be what Warne eventually ended up as, but Qadir did hold the legspin candle high and bright in the face of the fast-bowling whirlwind of the 1980's.

You're right, Geoff. It's only that us Indian fans react that way because we don't see what all the fuss is about, having seen Warne taken apart by our batsmen. But he is and will always be one of the greatest bowlers to have played the game.

It's not a competition!!!
Warne is a slow, over the wrist bowler. Murali is also a wonderful bowler. We're lucky we are alive to winess both of them. Off the field/On the field are different matters. Who knows what Mr Grace, Mr Bradman & Mr Jardine got up to "Off the Field" in the past? The game is played on the field. And what a difference Mr Warne has made to our game in 15 years!

Firstly, due apologies to Mr. Haigh since I’m sure he never imagined in his wildest dreams/nightmares that his ‘Positive Spin’ (title seems quite ironical now) would be dragged the farthest distance away from the objective of the article progressively to an ‘Australia vs The Rest of World debate’ to ‘Asia vs The Others debate’ to a ‘Warne vs Murli debate’ and lastly, but certainly not the least to a ‘Batsmen of Eng & SA vs Batsmen of Zim & Bangladesh’ debate. Phew!

By virtue of having the distinction of having the first post, I seemed to have necessitated the instant discussion (and absolutely unwittingly mind you) and it is only fair that I seek to have a harmonious end to the ‘healthy’ exchange brought about by the collective wisdom of all who have written here. I do agree that it’s a self-proclaimed privilege that I have conveniently bestowed on myself to end this debate (before anyone else wastes precious time on cyberspace abusing the crap out of me for taking up such a role). :-)

With all due respect:
1. It’s true that Shane Warne has had a very indifferent record against India but that by NO MEANS he’s a lesser bowler. He’s one of the greatest of all times ever. Period!
2. My only intention to highlight the above-mentioned record was to point out that Warne himself (under all probabilities) will be lamenting about the fact that Indian batsmen dealt with him comfortably enough as opposed to the rest of their international colleagues.
3. Another small matter…..we seem to overlook the fact that Indian batsmen have time and again stated the levels of preparation they had to undertake to counter Warne and notwithstanding that, how he was still that difficult to face. To say that Indian batsmen have “toyed” around with him is a bit too generous.
4. We really have no business to analyse his personal life and try to make him even an iota less of a cricketer.
5. And in my personal opinion, all the comments about ‘racism’/’small penis syndrome’/related jargons were entirely needless in the instant discussion.Hence, irrespective of Murli/Kumble/anybody else in the near or distant future...Warne is still a legend as much in the Subcontinent as anywhere else in the world...really!
6. And yes TIM, you are right…..statistics never ever tell the real picture….i would still spend my money to go see Warne anywhere in India even if he is getting hammered by Tendulkar & Co just to see the great man at his art, to see how he tries to outwit the guy with the bat with every SINGLE delivery, untiringly, persistently and often shamelessly.

Warne is a cricketing genius - albeit a poorly balanced human being - the latter of which should be of little concern to legions of sports fans. For, the same ego that has caused so much personal turmoil has been a driving force behind Warne's cricketing career.

The greatness of Warne was demonstrated with Australi'a defeat of S.Africa in the 1999 World Cup Semi Final. A great cricketer, a great team player, a match winnewr, and a man whose of-field flaws prevented him from becoming a fantastic Test captain

There is a fascinating article (ghost?)written by Stuart MacGill at the Guardian website today...he writes about how he laughs at people who suggest he was born in the wrong era, paying tribute to Warne as the man that revived slow blowing in a country where the art had become a historical novelty rather than a tradional force.

And admist all the hagiographies, he also tackles the question of Warne's off-field infamy. ".. courtesy of these distractions, we discovered perhaps his greatest strength.. it is incredibly valuable to a sport nowadays to have a leading player capable of combining unusually high standards on the field with a rock-star lifestyle..As players we may not want his life, but we would love to know how he keeps total focus on the field when the spotlight is on."

A measure of a great cricketer is always obtained from how many games the team won with him contributing in it. Shane Warne has contributed to and single-handedly won many a test for Australia with his bowling. That is what separates him from the others.

Warne will always be remembered for being an integral part of a ruthless, dynamic winning machine.

Murali will be remembered as the guy who got tired opposition centurions out on the way to another Sri Lankan hiding.

Success does not lie entirely with the individual.