It's a gamble which may pay-off I think he would get an opportunity in a 5 test series. He's a stroke player & pitches would suit him. But all in all England would be very very boring without KP & Freddie & its not a bad idea to bring in an exciting stroke player!

I think most batting positions in the current England team pick themselves...but you're right in saying that you need specialists in your top three positions. The rest of the positions aren't that rigid, but the openers and the one-drop batsman have to be good in Test cricket. However, that doesn't mean that someone like Collingwood can't put their hand up and take the responsibility. Someone's got to do it, and Collingwood is the man for the job. Pietersen is the best player of spin in the England team, and therefore should come lower down the order.
However, England shouldn't put too much pressure on themselves. One way to perform well in Australia is to not think too much about the opposition...John Wright will tell you that. England should concentrate on their game rather than think about what Lee, McGrath or Warne will do.

i've always felt Shah was the sort of cricketer who blows hot and cold, and his test in India came when he was in the right mood. Key didn't really have a great season, and has always left a few question marks with previous performances. I don't know all that much about Joyce, there is a danger of him being an Ed Smith, but he looks as good a bet as any. I'd have still taken Ramps.

The otehr thing that puzzled me was the management's talk of having sufficient cover for the openers. Sure Cook will play there, but if either he or Strauss gets injured then there who? Bell's opened in one dayers, Vaughan if he comes back, but not KP or Colly. Key would surely have covered all bases. Plus if a middle order player gets injured and Bell struggles at 3 then Key could come in at 1-3 and Bell could move back down the order.

Ed Joyce must be pinching himself, being picked when so far down the queue. Good luck to him - will this gamble come off like Owais Shah did?

I disagree.

Pietersen is too good a player to bat 5.

Most teams have their premier bat at 3, but KP ought to bat at 4 so he has a little bit more protection from the new ball, since he is more vulnerable than most early in his innings.

Bell can bat in the top 4, as can Joyce - I'd agree Colly is a 5.

I reckon it has less to do with his batting and more to do with his fielding. The batting line up picks itself now (down as far as 6 at any rate) and out of the three possibilities, Joyce would make the best 12th man. We all know from the last Ashes how much Fletcher likes specialist sub-fielders (where is Gary Pratt anyway?)...

After seeing Trescothick on the last tour to Australia four years ago, I could never understand why England fans (and the England management) seemed to rate him so highly. He looked like a fringe Test batsman at best; one who almost certainly would never have had a Test career if he'd been born in Australia. His record outside England, and especially in Australia, seemed to confirm that he was an average Test batsman at best.

But even so, Trescothick seemed to add a sort of ballast to the England batting order. Without him(and of course Vaughan) England's batting lineup suddenly looks unbalanced and vulnerable. As Tim says, only Strauss and Cook are genuine top three batsmen. Of course the other side only has Hayden, Langer and Ponting....

The logical replacement would have definitely been Robert Key and I believed his close friendship with Andrew Flintoff might have tipped the scales in his favor, but I don't think Duncan Fletcher rates Key that highly. Owais Shah is undoubtedly the best player of spin out of the three but Ed Joyce provides flexibility as well as the bonus of being a left-handed middle order batsman. Lets be honest though, the script is set for Michael Vaughan.

although England will be with out one of their most experienced criccketers they shoul do well, although ed joyce is a talented cricketer are the england selectors willing to throw this inexperienced cricketer to the wolves ( magrath,lee and warne)though he is talented,
Robert Key would have been a better choice given his bit of experience in the test game, all the best to england in the ashes

personally, what ive seen of Joyce, he is a highly talented batsmen who deserves a shot at the highest level, but you would also have to say doesn't Shah deserve to be infront of Joyce in the que as he actually hasn't done anything wrong? It makes you wonder how many injuries the England top order would have to have for this guy to have a fair run. Hes also one of the best players of spin in the country and in my view deserves to be in front of Edmond.

What qualifications would the ideal replacement for poor old Tresco have on his CV? An experienced test opener, with prior experience and runs against Australia in Australia? Yes please. Someone who made runs in 2006 would be nice, someone who could slot into the side with ease. Tick. A bit of grit wouldn't go amiss too. So why has Mark Butcher become the forgotten man of English cricket? And who would you put your money on making the most runs opening the innings this winter, Joyce, Key, Shah or Butch?

You really should call this the England Ashes blog as your perspective is exclusively English and I feel the lack of balance in an "Ashes" blog.
Nothing wrong with that at all, but cricinfo is an international site and two teams will compete. Perhaps you guys should get an Aussie blogger for balance. You make good points but the exclusively english perspective can grate on antipodean nerves...

England won the Ashes due to poeple not experiencing the aussies. The niavity of inexperience helped them win. They did not fear mcgrath or warne. Why would we pick someone who has experienced the aussies getting the better of him in Key- He averaged 17 in the last tour. Think Joyce is the right option, c'mon joyboy!

Would rather have Shah over Joyce as Trescothick's replacement. Bell at 3 is unconvincing, but what choice do we have?

The nightmare is unfolding. Positively the last thing england wanted was to lose yet another experienced player. With Vaughn looking unlikely, Simon Jones missing, Bell looking out of his depth and Collingwood more of an ODI specialist, losing Treco before a ball was bowled is massive.

You're unlikely to see Marcus Trecothick play for England again.

Ok enough of the doom and gloom again.

Ed Joyce's selection makes perfect sense. He's made loads of runs, he's got a good temperament, Warne rated him as the best "English" batter on the county circuit and he's a good fielder. What else do you want? Centuries against the Aussies in Australia? well we'll have to wait for Vaughan in that case.

Shah and Key had poor county seasons as their averages reflect and there are rumours that Key is still being affected by a shoulder injury. Butcher is almost 35 and that's pretty much what his average was as well. Ramps is too busy dancing. One good season in division 2 doesn't make up for an average of 27 in 52 tests. Butch and Ramps are not the answer I'm afraid.

I get the feeling that you lot would be complaining regardless of who they picked.

JOyce was picked on the assumption he wouldn't have to play - I'd say if we have an injury at Adelaide or Sydney to one of the batsmen Shah will be drafted in, but he's a player who only seems to do well when its not needed, not the kind of player who can turn a match. Key is still another injury risk, Ramps, Crawley and Butch, they're just jinxed in my book. Thorpe's in Australia though, isn't he?

OMG how simple is it??
Why not have the best bat in the team bat at the best position?
Ie Strauss should come in first drop,and the openers should be undoubtedly be Bell and Cook.
Why expose the best batsmen to the new ball each time?????

From the distance it seems as though England supporters are already making excuses for the inevitable. Granted Simon Jones absence is a big blow, Vauhan´s as well and even Tresco was rather convincing during the last ashes - but they´ll be missing (in Vaughan´s case at least for some time).
I´d say back the team that´s chosen and support it. The Aussies batting line-up doesn´t look to frightening either (the openers are past their sell-by date, Martyn and Gilchrist still have a point to prove after last summer and Watson is a black-box concerning Ashes Tests).
The whole whinging reminds me of the FIFA-World Cup when Rooney got injured. After the outcry about that in the British media, I knew that´s it for England.
Still I´m on England´s side - it´s never good for a sport if one side ´s to dominating.

losing trescothick is a major blow for england, but it could be a blessing in disuise as he was well short of the superb form that we normally associate him with
havent seen much of joyce but what england need is an expereience strokemaker and who better than ramps but mark butcher would have been a good alternative

Key is not good enough for Test level. He's a scrapper who scored big runs against a mediocre Windies attack in England but hasn't done it against the best.
He didn't do much in South Africa and made a few starts in Oz last time without going on. He also got out to Damien Martyn.
Joyce is the better long-term bet. I feel for Shah, who did nothing wrong on his one Test appearance.
It seems, as with Read, that if the coach doesn't rate you then you're always going to be the outsider.
Duncan Fletcher has turned the team around so his way clearly works but it does seem that if you're not one of his favourites then you might as well forget about it.

i hadnt seen much of Ed just one odi,he scored a humble 20 then...but his approach and temparament was good....i daresay he mite as well be David Gower of genX......there was a sense of definiteness in his strokes...sad as it may seem,tresco's exit may actually prove to be a blessing in disguise for the poms......hopefully the English repeat their performance.....

Ed Joyce will enjoy the best seat to watch the cricket from and get to practice with the English team in between times. Colly will play until Vaughan is fit (probably Boxing Day). Problem solved. Hopefully by then it will be 2-0 Aust. Enjoy the holiday Ed. If you fancy a beer I will be in the outer!!

Mr de Lisle, I find it odd that you say Shah should be brought in because "Cook, Bell and Collingwood could be fairly clueless against Warne's spin." Isn't that pretty much the same thing as saying that Giles should be ahead of Panesar because he's a known quantity?

Xavier, plenty of openers have been the best bat in the team. Look at Gavaskar, Simpson, Gooch, Fleming, Hoobs, etc.

Mark Butcher - proven opener or 3, knows his game, has character, proven success against these fellows, is left handed. Why are we gambling with Ed Joyce?

Hey,I would have gone for Shah.I doubt how much will Cook,Bell,Colly and Ed score against the great Shaney?Given the Poms vulnerability against spin and Warney Shah would have been the logical choice.

I think us aussies have a fair amount of respect for butch, glad to see he will cool his decripid 35 yo heels back in the old country. I think Langer is having his 36th birthday bash soon maybe mark will get over for that

Ed Joyce, I think its a good gamble. Many new batsmen do well against australia before they are eventually found out of their weekness. Expect him to perform in the first two tests.

both shah AND joyce are good players, especially of spin bowling. but joyce has been chosen because he is replacing a left hander and that is handy against warne

just get in thorpe, he is still the best batsman against the Aussies. Bell should play number 3 and i think he WILL...