Cricinfo - Blogs - Ashes Buzz - England dilemma no.3: is the batting too raw?

I totally agree with the above comments on why Ramprakash and Butcher should be selected for the upcoming Ashes downunder. Butch performed well on the last tour too. He can bat as an opener or even as a one down batsman. He has been a consistent performer for England ever since his recall into the side during the 2001 Ashes. He deserves a spot in the winter tour.

Butcher and Ramprakash have had great seasons and have proved themselves to be two of the best at county level. However when we consider that the two of them have a combined average of only 62 at test level the future must surely be brighter when looking forward to the careers of Alistair Cook and Ian Bell.

I am a big, big fan of Mark Butcher. And I think it was a real shame that he got injured when he did on the South Africa tour two years ago. What people may forget is that in his last 30 or so test matches, from 2001 onwards, he averages in the mid 40s. And he was batting at number three, a spot that he made his own. I think he will also play with freedom as he is now in a position, similar to that of Shaun Udal, where he will want to enjoy every test he gets to play as he is into the twilight of his career and youth appears to have taken precedence in the national side.

Mark Ramprakash may be an interesting bet and it would be unfair if he doesnt get a mention after the season of his career. However I fear that neither will get a look in.

Our young players have had a number of ups and many downs in the past year since that glorious day in September when, at last, we grasped the urn again. Some have shown maturity beyond their years, like Monty Panesar. Some have stuttered after promising starts. All this leads me to believe that we could do with one or two more experienced campaigners to steady the ship. Especially with the probable absence of Michael Vaughan and Ashley Giles.

You have got to be kidding !!!! Butcher possibly, possibly, could still cut it at test match level, but Ramprakash ? He would represent a fair few steps back. And one of these two would be in at the expense of Alistair Cook, who averages a mere 55-odd at test level, and that's without playing any of the "minnows". Maybe he is due a bad series, and maybe that will be against the aussies, but something tells me that Bell/Cook will fare better than Ramps/Butch.

'Ramprakash, always effective against Australia and now in the form of his life, may bring more runs.'

Sorry, what?

Butcher, yes, Ramps... certainly not

Interestingly, all the persons who figured prominently in the last Ashes win for England (with the exception of Giles)should be back. Indeed, this is not a slight remark against Vaughn whose astute leadership will be missed. However, the job can still be done with a different leadership. The inclusion of Panesar, believe it or not, serves a multipurpose: to get wickets in the place of Jones and to keep it tidy over long spells (the latter task was required of Giles). On the assumption that Trescothick and Flintoff will return, Mr Bell has shown he will accredit himself well down under while Alistair Cook's mentality will hold him in great stead. Peterson is now an experienced player, so too is Collingwood.
In my opinion, England has been able to do this well because their personnel have found a way to step up their performances. It was done on a continuous basis against the Aussies. This Australian side reveals pretty much the same old look and I question their stamina throughout a five test series. Do you note how often some of their players complain about burnout after a series/ I mean, they even tried to use that as an excuse after their last Bangladesh tour.
Look out for an oustanding series, but in the end, I'm afraid durability will determine the winner.

This suggestion is a bet to nothing.There is no possibility whatsoever that either of these players will be picked, so why suggest it?

Mark Ramprakash would be an ideal choice for English selector and I quite agree that he is in the best form of his life. A very successful campaigner against the mighty Aussies. Actually, he can walk into any test playing team in the world.

I agree with the premise of this piece:
I think Butcher would be an excellent chap to bring in.

I suspect that Cook and Bell will find it harder going than against the Pakistan second string, and that Collingwood will find it more difficult on faster pitches. I'd expect one of these three to get some low scores early on and hence an experienced player, who has performed pretty well in Australia in the past, would be ideal to bring in for the 2nd/ 3rd test.

No, I disagree. Picking Ramps or Butch will be the worst mistake England could make right now. It took the team so much time exorcising the ghosts of past Ashes beatings. Picking the same old players who have those scars will be a step backwards. Australia will never let Ramps and Butch forget that they have been loosers far too often.
Cook will handle the pressure much better than those guys even if he fails a couple of times. Plus the fact that Butcher and Ramprakash are mediocre test batsmen to begin with. Not in your wildest dreams you want your test no.3 to with averages of 27(ramps from 71 tests) and 34(butch from 52) against McGrath,Lee and Warne.

I think England need to stay consistent with their policy of youth. Mark Butcher and Mark Ramprakash do not even fit in with England's strategy of dominating the bowlers and scoring 350 + runs a day. Both have been given enough chances. Both have scars from playing in Ashes losing series. Butcher rarely converts his slow 50's into hundreds while Ramprakash has been out of test cricket for a long time now. If Fletcher dropped Graham Thorpe who had been in form and was significant contributor to England's previous series wins, I see no hope for Butcher or Ramprakash. This would seem to be taking a huge step back and a big bonus for Australia.

I dont think Cook will be this year's Bell. Alastair Cook has experience of playing Indian spinners in India and notched a maiden hunderd. Besides now he has played Murali and Kaneria too along with Mohamed Asif, a McGrath type of bowler. Bell had only played one match versus West Indies and then against Bangladesh. And opening the batting will suit Cook more. I believe Cook will perform much better than what Bell did in last years Ashes.

Very good point here. Trescothick's mental state is too much of a gamble for me. So much of the game is in the head, if you're not 100% before the tour starts you're at a major disadvantage. Especially against Australia. Butcher and Ramprakash are in good and incredible form respectively. Either will be a positive but calming, experienced head and therefore a good selection. Will the selectors go with one or the other?

I think they should, I hope they do but I'm not sure they will.

England cant keep bringing back all the old players. It does no good for the future. A players ultimate test, especially an English one's, is to have a successful tour of Australia. The likes of Butcher and Ramprakash will do no good out here because they have been tries and tested and will be able to be worked out by Warne and Co. Although both of their records are good against Australia, I fail to see how this will benfit the English team. England have some great players already and a tour of Australia will harden their minds and make them fantastic players! Australians want to see new players and not a bunch of old has beens blocking out the place of a young star. If England select the right batsman for the right position, I think many will be surprised at some of the fighting qualities that this new breed of English players have aquired. Picking the good blend of old and new will make England a better team and Butcher and Ramprakash do not fit into this catergory. They are to old and its time for the English selectors to their thinking caps on and get this English to to fire!

Both Butcher and Ramprakash have had 50 plus tests to demonstrate they are test class players and in my opinion both have failed. Butcher's record is superior to Ramprakash but was littered with inconsistency. Both played in test sides that lost many more times than they won. I feel the selectors must look forward and pick Shah or Joyce as the extra batsman for Australia

Mark Butcher is a class batsman who beat Australia off his own bat in a test match but I don't seem to recall Mark Ramprakash ever making any runs against anyone at test level let alone Australia. Its a pretty big statement to say that he is "always effective against Australia" when has never been able to hold his test spot.

At last, a mention for Ramps! The guy has long had the talent, but as with Hick, it was never nurtured properly. His temperament as such was suspect, but he now comes over as a self assured individual, confident in his own ability. He is scoring runs for fun, is still a fine fielder and I think he'll now thrive on the challenge in Oz. He has nothing to prove, and whilst father time may sadly have caught up with Hicky at this level, I'm certain Ramps can be a real star out there. Youth or age should never be an issue - ability and temperament are all that matter!!

We want to win or retain the Ashes so the best side for now has to be chosen. All this 'the future of the team' has merit but the team needs to be successful, hopefully, retaining the Ashes. Then it is easier to build the next team. Ramprakash for certain for now, Cook for the future but also on the tour. Agreed.

Hi im only 13 but i know my cricket.

I think Ramprakash has been underated for a long time ( issuses with the selectors??) but with england obcessed with the "new" breed of cricketers that they are trying to produce, there is no way they will select him.

Would be interested in your reply keep up the good work

Jonathan Bouman

England go into the Ashes without old experienced players like Mark Butcher at their peril ! Mark will add a great stabilising influence to the team. Pietersen plays his shots, and with his big mouth, the Aussies are waiting for him, believe me, they have worked him out ! Pray for Flinthof & Jones, you are going to need them ! You have to include players who can put the Aussies under pressure, Then it will be rewarding

We can hardly wait for Butcher and/or Ramprakash to tour. McGrath and Lee must be whetting their lips at the thought. Stick with the youngsters !

As an Australian I would love to see both Butcher and Ramprakash tour this summer. Two seasoned batsmen used to being dominated by Australia.

I am in total agreement that Ramps and Butcher should be taken to Oz. How could England afford to defend the Ashes with a bunch of inexperienced lads in the middle order! McGrath and co. will devour them and win every Test Match.Let's hope that good sense will prevail. Ramps has never batted better, and Gough was brought back, why not Ramps and Butcher?

Australia has a habit of working out new players, Bell a prime example in last year's Ashes series. And usually once the likes of Warne and McGrath have dominated a batsman once in a series, that player is haunted when coming up against those attacks again. Bell has ran into some good form lately, but i feel that on his first tour to Australia he may struggle. Cook is still a relatively young member of the side, and is yet to really come against an attack in really difficult circumstances. It looks as though he has the temperemant to handle the Aussies, but you never know.
Let's look at the other two now. Ramprakash has currently over 2200 runs at an average that exceeds 100, whilst scoring at a strike rate around 60, which sticks to the plan of scoring 350+ in a day. Plus he has also registered his highest career score. I don't think these type of figures can just be ignored. Plus, his highest Test score came against the Aussies. And adding experienced First Class players to the Test team isn't always a horrible idea - take Michael Hussey as a prime example. Butcher has also scored a mountain of runs this year too, and also was an automatic pick in the team before he got injured.
I don't think the selectors are going to pick these two guys however, but when you are touring Australia you need to have experience in your squad. I think let at least one of these guys tour to add another experienced figure in the camp.

As a Strong Supporter of the English Cricket Team, albeit living in Australia, I am strongly for the picking of at least Mark Butcher for the Ashes this year, because if anyone can recall his match winning 173 NOT OUT in the 2001 Ashes Series in England, then that just proves the point. Also watching his form for Surrey and that further proves the case. He has led Surrey from the front and albeit, Surrey have been promoted in both forms of County Cricket for next year, and this is on the back of 2 Men, Mark Ramprakash and Mark Butcher. The factor that Butcher still has is age, as he's not quite as old as Mark Ramprakash, even so, his form has been a step above that of Butcher. He still has the passion for runs, as proved by the 301 NOT OUT only a few weeks ago and a first class average of over 51?? One of the issues I find with Ramprakash coming back in is definetely age, and the other fact, would he want to?? The Selector gave up the faith in him and i think seriously after his last 12 months, they should have showed more faith in him. This is not to say that i wouldnt like to see both of these batsmen down here kicking the ass of the Aussies once again. The ideals of having youth in the team are valid, but you need to have the right mix of youth and experience. If England head to Australia with the Batting line-up of the past English Summer, they will not be the force of the Last Ashes Squad, and looking to be without Michael Vaughan to lead them.

ENGLAND NEED AT LEAST ONE OF THESE BATSMEN FOR THE ASHES.

Making runs at County level is a totally different kettle of fish to making them consistently at test level. Ramps had his chance, and got an extended one at that, and blew it. As for Butcher, he likes playing the guitar more these days than he does toughing it out with Warnie...

Bell and Cook will do the job nicely.

Great suggestion, mate. I recall Cricinfo directing England to 'Pick Hick' for the 2003 World Cup when Hicky was in amazing form and instead the selectors went for Ronnie Irani!! I feel the same may happen to Butch and Ramps just because they are old. I think Ramps would be be the better bet because he has not played since 2001 so is more of an unknown wildcard and may produce a surprise or too, plus add to the fact that he's high on confidence and having a season in the sun. If Shaun Udal and the other bowler who didn't play for ten years got a few tests, why not Ramps!! With Vaughan and Tresco prolly out, he is the best bet!

England definatly need to bring some experience back to their side. Its definatly important to keep youngsters coming through but they need experience backing them up. Maybe the option of Butcher, Ramprakash or even Hick could be a possibility to be in the squad even as a mentor and provide cover if required! Maybe even consider trying to get Michael Vaughan ready for the third test. There is definalty a need for some more experienced batsmen.

I'm Aussie, but I would like the best possible squad to come here, and I don't think that it could include Butcher or Ramps.

Back up spots should go to Bell and the forgotten Robert Key. He can open or bat anywhere in the top 6 really.

Worth considering Ramprakash. He's in fine form and is the only batsman to have had some success on Australian wickets in the absence of Vaughan.

However I'd question his attitude and whether he fits the ethos Fletcher considers so essential to England's success.

Butcher - nice bloke but any contention that he's successful against Australia is drawing a long bow.

OK, if age is not a factor, I would rather pick someone like Stuart Law than a Butcher. If you talk about experience and success, he's won 3 pura cups and had been the leader scorer for Queensland for a few yrs. But I wonder how the aussie crowd would react to this move??

Ramprakash is still the best and most respected batsman in county cricket! No other England batsman would be as greedy for runs against Oz as him. If Gooch could score most of his runs after age 35, and Brian Close and Cowdrey brought in to save England after age 45, why can't Ramps at at a mature 37? -Boston Mass

I don't think the suggestion is that both Butcher and Ramps would be useful in the 16. But one might, Butcher. Forget the youth thinking; it is a time to retain the Ashes.

I would send Stressco to Perth with his Mrs and daughter to work out his mind AND leaden footwork. So, for Brisbane:

Strauss
Cook
Butcher
KP
Bell
Collingwood
Flintoff
Read
Monty
Hoggard
Harmison

If England lose at the Gabba, there will be no after Lords bounce-back. This is a 450 first innings side.

The only way i can really see England winning the Ashes is if their fast bowling gets their act together, and fires. Flintoff, Jones, Harmison and Hoggard should be a threat to ANY batting lineup when fit. If the bowling doesn't fire, come what/who may (including twice their average of runs from Butch/Ramps), I don't see England not losing heftily.

I don't think this scenario is very likely. England won the ashes by chancing their arm and picking the side they thought could win the series. Not by picking safe bets. Admittedly England only need to draw this series to retain the urn but I don't think they can afford to be that defensive and I think they know it. There is only one way and that is forward. England start as underdogs for this series but the next 3-4 series will heavily favour England because of their current rich crop of young players, particularly batsmen. No good picking players with no international future.

Ramps & Mark Butcher must be back in team Becouse the only problame for English line up is there defense.Both batsman are very good......And they are in top form. Ramps who got more then 2000 runs in couty championship deserves a place.
England can depend on these two and can concentrate on there inexperienced bowling line up.And can even get in an extra bowler.

I’d bring Butcher or Ramprakash back, although not both. Buctcher didnt do much wrong before he got injured and is still 34..younger than hayden and langer and martin …and ramprakash is in the form of his life and has a record against the aussies. Forget any rubbish about looking back and not looking forward, and about looking to the future…im recommending this based on cold logic…if collingwood/bell cant buy a run and we’re 2-0 down..they are the best replacements…and i’d even say in the abscence of vaughan you may be able to squeez them into the top 6 for brisbane..and if trescothick isnt touring then we definitly need to do this..as it will provide some much needed experience.

It just comes down to who you’d prefer to deal with Lee bowling 90mph at one end and Warne bowling into the rough at the other..an out of form collingwood or an experienced Butcher.

David Graveneny please take note.

Butcher - absolutely not.
Ramprakash - possibly, but only if his role is understood in advance and acceptable to him.

Ages back it used to be standard practice to have an "elder statesman" travel with the team. Not a team manager - but a player who's been there and done that. His job was to provide a solid backing for the players, and in worse case scenario even play. Players into their 40s and even 50s regularily travelled with the touring parties and even occasionally got to play!

Ramprakash test career is over. That's clear. He isn't seeking to resurrect it and no one else should. However, sending him as team support (not as 14th or 15th player but as the rock for the team to look up to, given this is such a young and inexperienced side) may give some added stability to this side.
There are real batting options for an extra batter - and they should be sent - but it should also be remembered this is a very injury prone side, it is a long tour, and England are far away from home support. So having Ramps there for the players to lean back on - and in worse case scenario take the field - is not a bad option.

By the way - other countries limit the touring party simply due to the expense of sending too many people. This is not a real issue for Australia, England or India. If in doubt - I say sent 2 or 3 more people. Better have them there enjoying a glorious Australian summer then moping around in the bleak English winter.

I can understand the thought of bringing Butcher to add some experience but Ramprakash?!! You want to replace a young bloke like Cook who averages in the fifties to bring in a bloke with an average of 25 in 52 tests? How can you be a batsman averaging in the twenties and play 52 tests anyway? No wonder us aussies have dominated england for so long. If it were me, keep Cook and add Butcher, someone who has had some success against australia, his 178 not out against us was an excellent innings from him.

Ramps may be in the form of his life but there is a world of difference between test and first class cricket.Butcher too may have a fine record against Australia but finally for the first time in 16 years an English team is going to Australia with a majority of their players never having tasted Ashes defeat.Bringing back Ramps and Butch might win the Ashes,but realistically how long are they going to play for huh?England is building a team for the future guys.Bringing back the past is not an option

Go on pick those scarred old englishman- best end those careers rather than destroy the confidence & technique of a young talent like Cook. Wait till Warney & McGrath move on then give them a crack out here.

I think Ramprakash should be the first player picked. Then Butcher and Hick. Giles should also be straight in.

I Think cook is a fine young player but could be tested against Mcgrath, Lee etc and id hate to see him thrown on Englands ever growing Test batsmen scrap heap. Ramps is in fine county form and probably deserves one last tour down under. Butcher is a lesser player than Ramps anyway and has had his day. I believe cook should be given in the first test with Ramps the reserve Batsman

Ramps is all class, has to get a gig ahead of nudgers like Cook and Colly. Maybe tell Strescothick to cool his jets also, as he is yet make an Ashes hundred and struggles on the bouncier wickets. Even better, get Murray Goodwin qualified for England, the blokes a genius. This is the ideal England squad for Brisbane:

Strauss, Cook, Bell, KP, Ramps, Collingwood, Peng, Flintoff, Read, Panesar, Hoggard, Harmison, Plunkett, G. Jones, Giles, Shantry

England must pick either Ramprakash or Butcher or both in the Ashes party.
Bell & Collingwood are brittle; there is no doubt about this, particularly against Warne, Lee, McGrath on a Brisbane seamer or a Perth flyer.
Ramprakash is presently the best bat in England and Butcher is not far behind. Throughout Ramps' test career his mental strength was questioned. This is no longer an issue. At 34 years of age, and with almost 2,500 Championship runs in 2006 under his belt it would be a travesty not to pick him on the tour.
Butcher has also been in great form for Surrey and from 2001 onwards his test average is 40+. Apart from Vaughan, Butcher was the only other England bat to score a test ton on the last winter Ashes tour. Add to that his 173 against Australia at Headiongly in 2001.
When England are 2-0 down and Bell/Collingwood cant score a run who will England be looking for?
Yes, Butcher and Ramps must go to Australia.

Bring back Butcher or Ramps? a nice thought but it's a bit like asking Fords to bring back the Cortina! It's not that i think they still don't
have it but they would have had to be involved in & around test cricket during the summer
Ramprakash an elegant stroke maker & a joy to watch when in full flow, Butcher raw aggression & power, a match winner but it ain't going to happen,the one thing we do have is batsmen & the only way for them to become great batsmen is out in the test arena so as much as i would enjoy watching Butch & Ramps hitting the AUSTRALIAN bowling all round the bush i think it's just a dream(sigh)
Regards Robert Maughan

I am an Aussie and bring 'em both on I say!! Both are past it, actually they never had it!

Well Ramprakash averages more than 42 against the aussies from 24 innings with one century and 6 fifties which cant be considered too bad.

Butcher averages 33 against the aussies from 40 innings with 3 centuries and 4 fifties. This is quite a lot worse than Ramps..

If it should be cook/bell/ramps who should play I would consider playing Ramps if tres, vaughan isn't playing. They need some experience of australian conditions and none of the other batsmen have this...

There has been a lot of talk about these two players being "scarred" from past beatings. It's true that Ramps never had success against the old enemy but Butcher won a test single handedly with a brilliant innings - most of the aussies remember that because most of their side are on the wrong side of 30.

Yeah thats a top idea to bring Butcher or Ramps out here, if only just to see if those old men get down low and duck under a bouncer from Lee/Clark/Tait. Both of them are past it at international level they are either going to get injured or have a top score of 5 out here. If you really want bring back an old dog, please get Mike Gatting out of retirement he is fat and reminds us of Santa.

I think Bell & Cook are far better players when compared to Butcher & Ramps & they are young too. Their fielding also will lift the spirits of England Team. Bringing Butcher & Ramps
will surely reduce the Scoring rate as well, and it will put lot of pressure on other players who follow them.

It is better to go with with winnning combination, i.e the present bunch of players.

As an aussie i would love to see the english bring mark ramprakash on tour down here as we would be a monty to win the ashes. you couldnt be serious in suggesting he is capable of making england a stronger team. smashing around local county teams is different then making big scores against glenn mcgrath brett lee and warnie in there own conditions but plase english selectors bring him out i would love for us to have the ashes back

Reading through the comments I don't know what to think. Ramps had a Compton like summer, eight hundreds including a 301*, averaging over a hundred etc...

And touring Australia must be such an experience. These young players will be under so much pressure away from the field let alone on it. But maybe that will work in our favour, players so young it just washes over them, whereas Ramps might be more affected by it. But then he could carry over his form, play with an abandon and if we had a batsman that ended the tour with an average of almost 100 would be key. It could work, but I just don't know...

I dont know about putting butcher and ramps in the actual 11, but taking them along in the squad isnt a bad idea with what has happened to tresco and the inexperience in bell and cook. They would be the best back up england can take along because of their experience.

The entire England team is bollocks!

The are going to be put to the sword in Australia. Then i suggest they go back and sob like the baby's they are: im almost 100% sure they had somethign to do with the ball tampering incident. Such a bunch of sore losers who can't play one-day cricket to save their lives.

>> Bringing back Ramps and Butch might win the Ashes,but realistically how long are they going to play for huh?England is building a team for the future guys. > Bringing back the past is not an option <<

It's one doughty batsman to add ballast of experience of conditions etc, with a weight of recent runs and past form against Aus. Butcher.
England would still be on average 3 years younger per man in Brisbane, easily.

Mark RampraTRASH??? HAHA!!

What every team needs is guts. England have that in spades already without having to resort to bringing back "elder statesmen." Look at Collingwood and Pietersen- Collingwood's had success against us in the one-day game, so won't be intimidated, and Pietersen's too arrogant to be intimidated by anyone at all. Maybe we should bring back the Waughs!

Do England need experienced batters for the toughest tour of all? The answer has to be yes. Vaughan is out, Trescothick and Flintoff have to be doubts at this stage. The way the Aussies work over sides, and with them thirsting for revenge, will make this tour even harder for England than usual. And England always get more than their fair share of injuries in Oz, so there should be plenty of players travelling which would also increase options. It is quite possible that Bell, Collingwood, and Cook will all struggle against the best bowling attack in the world. So I would take both Ramps and Butcher. Everyone knows Ramps had a patchy Test career, but his fragile confidence was not protected by England's "family attitude" of today. His form this season could scarcely be better, and like Shaun Udal last year he should not be fazed by one last chance. His runs suggest he has his demons locked away now. Butch was unlucky to lose his place through injury, and also deserves to go. At the very least this pair would give England some experienced back-up. If they are not picked, the selectors will have egg on their faces if McGrath, Warne & co slice through the current England batting which looks vulnerable at this level.

Tim please, now come on, please, can you just drop your pathetic Ramps one-man crusade. Picking either him or Butcher is huge backward step.

Fletcher's greatest achievement has been to root out the bluffers that dragged Englsih cricket down to the mire in the 90s, Ramp's is a prime example of this awful era when selfishness prevaded (If I hear one more person tell me he's got a great technique I will knock them out, he averages 28, 28, 28 - not good enough).

Also youth and verve in the field is where England have a huge edge over this Australia side. We have both Robert Key and Owais Shah, both of whom have shown decent Test form in recent seasons, why on earth would we not take on of those on tour.

Any anyway your arguement won't stack up, both Tresco and Flintoff will take their places in the top 6 for the first Test and we'll have the perfect balance.

Lovely bloke though Mark Butcher appears to be, he can count himself extremely fortunate to have played as many Tests as he did. Seventy-odd Tests with an average in the low thirties throughout? Lucky boy!

The myth of Butcher's "excellent" record against Australia is just that - a myth. Notwithstanding his three centuries, he actually averages less than his (already mediocre) Test figures in twenty odd matches against the old foe, only passing fifty seven times in forty knocks. Frankly, there are better batsmen currently playing for England than Mark Butcher.

Ramprakash's record against Australia is surprisingly impressive, but to bring back either of these two veterans would surely undermime the intriguing "Young Thrusters v Dad's Army" sub-text, which must be an irritant to the Aussie public, following years of the boot being on the other foot!

I agree with the idea of picking Butcher, but I dont know what the sense in picking Ramprakash would be, even if it is a short term fix. He was last played in the 2001 series, scored 1 century but did not contribute in the other matches. That would not exactly be the sign of a middle order batsman, Butcher on the other hand was in his peak when he was cut off by injury. Even though certian sections seem to think England had good fortune when Butcher got injured, England will go into the Ashes a better side if they leave out one of Cook or Bell and there is some doubt of Collingwood as he is actually statistically the worst but he is an asset to the team by his experience, and he is the best technically equipped to deal with Mcgrath and Warne.

Ramprakash - very poor test match batting average, bolstered by moderate success on the 1998/99 tour of Australia (made higher by a couple of red-inkers and, lest we forget, he scored his runs painfully slowly), was never part of a successful England team, reputed occasionally to be a destabilising influence in the team. Against this background, why on earth should runs at county level over the last two years commend him to the selectors? It has been amply demonstrated that success in county cricket is not a reliable indicator of test match class.

Butcher - a better player and a better person with a better record (certainly in the second half of his test career), but time moves on...

The team of 2005 thrived on youth and aggression. That is the way forward. Fielding will be crucial.

Ray Illingworth had a brilliant idea in 1994 to take two senior batsmen to Australia (Gooch and Gatting) to shore up the middle order. It was distastrous. The big, hot fields of Brsbane and Perth are no places for old and tiring limbs.

Anyone know the history behind the newly capped Aussie Mark Cosgrove? He looks really good!

Ramprakash - you are having a laugh! I don't think so.

Is it April 1st? This suggestion is completely laughable.

Ramprakash has had so many chances and has not shone as a test player, so why should this time be any different?

Butcher - also a retrograde step.

What would it do for the confidence of Bell, Cook etc if one of them were to be dropped in favour of Butch or Ramps?

At the end of the day Ramprakash averages 42 plus v Aus with 1 hundred and 6 fifties in 12 tests - showing he can score runs against the best. He is the most talented player of his generation and it is a crying shame Eng didn't nurture his obvious class more effectively and get the best out of him. Ramprakash may well be more at ease in the more relaxed England dressing room now than he was under Ray Illingworth where it was a couple of bad tests and your dropped, I hate to think what would have happened to Bell if he was around in that era after averaging about 17 v Aus in the Ashes. Ramprakash should bat three and Cook open - he has looked vulnerable starting against leg spin and Kaneria all summer and going in on 0 facing Warne would not be ideal.

There is much to be said, amongst a very young and inexperienced side, for lacing the tour party with the experience of Ramprakash who is in the form of his life. NERVES will be key in Australia, and Ramps would have no nerves because he has no future to play for. If he went, he would know it was for a "last hurrah", his morale would be sky-high, and the very fact that he is most unlikely, succeed or fail, to have any international career beyond the tour would set him free from the pressures which weigh heavily on Bell, Cook etc. A blend of youth and experience is essential, and with Flintoff, Tescothick and Vaughan all either unavailable the case for Rampracash or Butcher as an "old hand" amongst the inexperienced replacements is a strong one. Of the two, I would go for Ramps simply because of his exceptional current form. And, even in his mid-thirties, he would still be second only to Collingwood in the field.

Geeez when is England gonna give due credits to its young guns? Trust in Cook and Bell they will deliver the goods. It will be a morale booster for the upcoming young men to know that the people are behind them and have faith in them. Ramps and Butch had their time and they delivered what they could, now is the time of these young men and lets be behind them and give possible support to play their roles to retain ashes. go guys get em fair and square in their back yards.

Ramprakash averages 42 in 12 Test matches against Australia, but there is no point in prolonging his Test career. Stats are one thing and he may do quite well, but I would rather see Cook and Bell etc face up to their fears v Warne and McGrath. It may be horribly nerve-wracking to watch, but these are meant to be our best young men.

Ramprakash Against Aussies:
Av: 42.4 (49.30 in Australia, 36.66 in England)

HS: 133
Runs: 933

6 50's, 1 100.

Hardly a bad record is it?

There's no point in going backwards - at least not as far as Butcher and Ramprakash. If England are going to take an experienced payer as back-up batsman it needs to be Robert Key. He's been unlucky to have been left out in the past and overtaken by the likes of Bell and Cook, but he's just as good a player.

Ramps has an average of 42 against the Aussies - unbelievably good compared to his career average - however, it's not really a good enough reason to pick him - it would go against all the new regime stand for.

Bell, Cook and co are going to have to find the skill and courage to be successful. It could be horrible or be the making of them.

Whilst I think that the current England setup would both be unlikely to pick Ramps and I would question whether he would be able to fit in, it may not be as "pathetic" as suggested to argue his corner.

Of the current England contracted players, against Australia only KP (52.55) and Vaughan (47.95) average more than Ramps whose average is 42.4 (24 innings) with no other player above 40.

Ramps would be no good for the future but then is planning for the future really more important that winning the Ashes?

I can see that you might have a case for using Ramps as a locum v the Aussies. He always looks so solid against Warne and McGrath and that was in their heyday - but the one problem was that in 1998 and 2001, although he looked really good, he kept getting out for 57,64, 40 odd and oddly enough, 14!!!

That 133 at the Oval put more of a gloss on a very modest 2001 series.

The idea is to win the ashes, not build for the future.

I'd take Ramps as the spare bat, if Trescothick plays then he is not in the side. Who are the other options as spare batsman? Joyce, Key and Shah. Joyce did not do enough in the one dayers, and has never played a test so probably out. Key and Shah are both good players, but neither is really known for their mental strength (certainly not Shah) and both have limited experience. If Bell had been around in the mid 90s he would never have made it as a test player. If Ramps or Hick had come into the side under Fletcher then i suspect things may have turned out very differently. How many players did Ray Illingworth manage to ruin?

u r pulling our leg r u not

NO WAY. They will be a baggage they can ofcourse tour Oz with the media. we need those who can dream not who are shellshocked. go for the young blood. this is the real ashes is not or is it the senior version.. if so why not gatting and gooch as well

Theres not room for either of them, theyre not the only two ex-test players to go back to country cricket and flourish. Doesnt mean they are suddenly the best people to put back in the team.

The real question is who to play out of bell and collingwood. People seem to be forgetting that when flintoff comes back and if england want to play 5 bowlers then either bell or collingwood must go.

Ramprakash is a proven run maker at all levels, and his technique is textbook. He had self doubt issues in the past, but with age he has mellowed and I think he would have a fantastic tour if he went.

Scaring all our young players against a strong Aussie team at home is not the best way forward.

I have seen a lot of comments suggesting that england need more experienced batters on the tour, mainly Butcher or Ramprakash- they are all complete rubbish! I cannot believe that people think they would do a better job than Trescothick, Cook, Bell etc. It's just feeding meat to the lions- remember when Sri Lanka brought back Jayasuria this summer? He was completly ineffective and was found out easily by the england bowling, and the same would happen to either Butcher or Ramps. To take either of these two would be a negative desision at a time when England need to be aggresive and positive- as proved when England dropped Thorpe for Pietersen last year.

The comparison with Jaya is a little unfair. Jaya had already been struggling for some time in tests.

Just seven batsmen all in then - no back-up at all. The merits of the Surrey golden oldies and others like Crawley or Key were all ignored. Whatever the rights or wrongs of any individual, the numbers must be wrong when you are taking one opener who admits he's mentally not fit right now, a number three who could be badly exposed so early in his career in Australia and a recuperating captain with the weight of the world on his shoulders to bowl, bat field and captain out of his skin. Bell and Collingwood MUST play as they often hold the middle-order together but it seems one, probably Collingwood, will be left out to make way for one of Anderson (big fitness concern & can't bat), Mahmood (out of his depth) or Plunkett (hitherto ineffective at Test level). The only other option is to go back to Giles (because he can bat?) and drop Panesar for any Test outside Sydney. AND THAT CAN'T HAPPEN! It swings in Australia and Jon Lewis should have gone ahead of Mahmood and Stuart Broad offers more than Plunkett, but at least we have options if Harmison/Hoggard/Flintoff break down. But what have we got if Tresco and Cook aren't up to it for one reason and another. No one. The Aussies beat themselves last year and our best hope is they do so again by getting their own selections wrong.